Ever since Season 5 began I have been seeing an appalling lack of time travel understanding from the LOST fan community. This came as somewhat of a shock to me, because I was given to the understanding that LOST fans were a rather clever bunch. But it is clear from recent activity in the comments of Lost Blogs and the posts at Lost Forums that a lot of fans wouldn’t know a paradox from a pair of ducks.
Don’t get me wrong, I still think the LOST fan base is as clever as ever. After all, when was the last time a Grey’s Anatomy fan traced the contents of a prop to an online game? That being said, it is obvious that some, if not most, are having trouble with the time travel aspect of Season 5. So, I decided to try to help out.
It occurred to me that the crux of the problem is that Daniel claimed the past cannot be changed, and then subsequent events seem to indicate that it can. For instance, I’ve read that some people think the past was changed when Locke told Richard to look him up on his birthday, or more recently with Danielle finding Jin upon reaching the Island and then apparently not recognizing him 16 years later.
In this article I will explain how to reconcile these two seeming inconsistencies with Daniel’s Rules. The principle I use should be general and straight forward enough to apply to any other incidents that have, or will crop up.
It all starts with ‘Walkabout’, the episode that got me hooked on LOST. When the tour guide came around his desk and we saw Locke in his wheelchair for the first time, my jaw hit the floor. That one scene made me re-evaluate Locke. I suddenly realized my information on him was incomplete, I now knew that prior to waking up on the beach, Locke was crippled. That was the beauty of the flashback as used in LOST, it allowed the storytellers to reveal facts about the characters’ past concurrently with the Island story.
Why do I bring this up? We have watched four seasons of LOST, and with very few exceptions, every episode has featured some part of the story taking place either in the past or future. We are given information about people, places or things in a non-chronological order, and to date, no one has had a problem with this.
We watch the first three episodes and we assume Locke has always had the ability to walk. But then we see him in a wheelchair, and suddenly we realize we were wrong, we have learned a new fact about Locke and we update our knowledge accordingly.
At the same time, we realize there is no direct correlation between the flashbacks and the Island story. In other words, the revelation of Locke’s pre-crash crippledness did not suddenly have any effect on post crash Locke. He did not suddenly loose the use of his legs just because the audience now knew his secret. Why not? The answer is simple and everyone reading this can answer.
Because the flashbacks happened in the past.
Because we know that the events portrayed in the flashbacks happened in the past, they effect and inform the events portrayed in the Island story, regardless of the order the storytellers decide to tell them in. This is why we can see Walt running around on the Island long before we get a flashback showing his birth. Regardless of when the episodes are aired, all flashbacks predate the Island story.
Because the time traveling being done this season is no different from the flashbacks or flashforwards of previous seasons.
Think about it. The flashbacks portray the events in the past. The time jumps portray events in the past. The flashbacks reveal actions of our characters that effect the events in the present. The time jumps reveal actions of our characters that effect the events in the present. The only difference is that Sawyer, Juliet, Locke and Co. (from their point of view) are from the future.
So basically what is happening in the fan community is you take the traditional flashback technique that we are comfortable with, and have enjoyed for four seasons, throw the phrase ‘time travel’ in there and suddenly everyone looses their minds and starts screaming “Paradox!”
But why? No one had a problem with the flashbacks. Hell, they didn’t even bat an eyelash at the flashforwards. So I say, if you are having trouble with this new time jump technique, just think of them as flashbacks and you should feel a lot better. Let’s see how this works on the two examples mentioned at the outset of this article, Locke telling Richard to look him up on his birthday, and Danielle meeting Jin.
Locke and Richard
Last season we got ‘Cabin Fever’ featuring Locke flashbacks. These flashbacks revealed that Richard was present at Locke’s birth, and then later tested him for leadership of the Others. This was a little mysterious, why would Richard be present at Locke’s birth, and how would he know to be there? At the time, we probably expected to get the answers to that in a flashback, or straight from Richard’s mouth.
Instead we get a time jump and people cry paradox. But where’s the paradox? If we treated this as a flashback, there would be no problem. Richard was told by a stranger to visit Locke’s birth. The only little wrinkle is that due to the time jumps, this stranger was John Locke. But John didn’t change anything, anymore than learning that Locke was in a wheelchair prior to the crash changed anything. We, the audience, were given information regarding Richard’s motives for visiting Locke’s birth that we didn’t have at the time ‘Cabin Fever’ aired.
This information involved events prior to Richard visiting Locke’s birth, and just as above, it should be obvious that since these events happened in the past, they have no concurrent effect on the present. If they have no effect, Locke could not have ‘changed’ anything. Hence when Richard was staring at baby Locke through the window, he was able to recall the conversation he had with adult Locke in the tent in 1954. Later when he visited Locke as a young boy to administer the leadership test, he expected Locke to pass because of the conversation he had with the elder Locke in 1954 where Locke claimed to be the leader. He was upset when Locke failed because he expected him to pass based on Locke’s claims.
Danielle and Jin
Throughout Seasons 1 to 4, Danielle has popped up now and then. She has been in the Losties’ camp from time to time, but for the most part has interacted mostly with Sayid. She is a little, if not totally, insane, and really, really tight-lipped. We have not really learned anything about her other than the few tidbits that she herself has let drop, and even those facts are suspect because she has shown herself to be an unreliable source of information.
Despite all this, the instant Danielle is shown to have spoken with Jin, suddenly everyone cries paradox because Season 1 through 4 Danielle does not greet Jin as her long lost buddy from when she first arrived on the Island.
Again, treat this time jump as a traditional flashback. What if TPTB decided to do an episode where Danielle and Alex have a little heart-to-heart moment and we got a traditional flashback to when Danielle and Co crashed. What if instead of finding Jin upon reaching the Island, Danielle and her friends were greeted by Ben and the Others, who help them out with food and shelter, only later to steal Alex.
So why is Jin’s presence any different? If we treated this as a traditional flashback, we would just have to accept that Jin was with Danielle’s group the whole time, we just didn’t know it yet. Any behavior on Danielle’s part in Seasons 1 through 4 that is inconsistent with this new information can be explained in conventional ways.
For instance:
- Expecting Danielle to recognize Jin after 16 years assumes he doesn’t time jump away five minutes into next week’s episode.
- Assuming he spends a reasonable amount of time with them, enough to make a lasting impression on her, is it reasonable to expect her to associate her Korean friend from 16 years ago with the Korean guy with the 815 survivors?
- Besides, who’s to say she didn’t recognize him? Maybe she did, but kept her mouth shut, as she has been known to do. She is not exactly in the running for the Island’s Most Informative Inhabitant Award.
The Bottom Line
If you are having trouble accepting this new method of receiving information on the past, just try to think of these time jumps as interactive flashbacks. See if that helps. If it doesn’t and you still can’t wrap your head around it, just relax and watch Grey’s Anatomy instead.
88 Responses to “Time Travel For Dummies”
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Daniel actually said if you tried to change something, time would find a way to correct itself. This is probably why Locke chose wrong when Richard visited him. If he picked correctly things would have changed, by being wrong time allowed events to take the natural course.
That is not what Daniel said. He said if you try to change something you will fail. There is a big difference.
“if you tried to change something, time would find a way to correct itself.” implies that a change can be made, but something will alter your change further to put it back on track.
“if you try to change something you will fail.” means that you can’t make any changes period.
@imfromthepast: Not necessarily. “If you try to change something you will fail.” could easily mean that the effect you’re trying to achieve won’t work. You could go and try to change something, but you’ll fail *because* time will correct your attempt. Capish?
Jimzip
yes, this is one of those areas where I amy not agree with, but i know that’s where Darlton is going with it, via corse correction.
Please, please correct me if I am wrong. Seriously. I have read for a few weeks now over, and over again why it was that Locke chose wrong when Alpert visited him as a boy. Wrong. The direction he was given was to choose the item that belonged to him. Before I go on, let me remind everyone of the title of the well executed article above “Time Travel For Dummies”. At the point in time when Alpert visits Locke he has NOT YET BEEN TO THE ISLAND! Therefore he has never been in posession of the compass. It has not yet ever been his. Locke chose the item that fit his emerging personality- a knife, a symbol of survival and protection. Alpert must be disappointed because he was searching for something else. At this point he has met present day Locke who presents him the compass and tells him he gave it to him and said he said he probably would’nt know who he was the next time he saw him. Even though Locke told alpert he was the one who originally gave him the compass, maybe Alpert never posessed the compass before Locke gave it to him in 1954(?). But the bottom line is Locke chose wrong because he never owned the compass prior to Alpert giving it to him. There is nothing special to him about the compass at that point in time. I think Alpert expected something even more supernatural about Locke than he got. I think they call this on Star Trek a temporal causality loop. Please excuse my run on paragraph and please, enlighten me if I am missing something.
Dolce – Locke did choose the compass. He chose the compass and the vile of sand and then looked at the Book of Laws before ultimately choosing the knife. That’s when Alpert got up and stormed out.
One problem–how do your reconcile your description of the Locke-Richard meeting and compass-giving (which, by the way, I agree with you on) with Daniel’s conversation with Desmond? Why can Richard remember Locke’s conversation from the moment it happens, allowing him to visit Locke in 1956, yet Desmond has no recollection of his conversation with Daniel until it occurs along the 2008 timeline? The two instances, side-by-side, don’t make much sense. It would be like Richmond not remembering his conversation with Locke until the 2008 timeline when his Other team is wandering in the jungle post-Locke time-jumping…
My natural inclination would be to say that Desmond simply remembered the conversation he had with Daniel out of the blue some random day on his boat three years after getting rescued. The order in which it is presented on the show, seeing the event on the Island and then cutting to Desmond waking up was just an editing choice and does not imply a direct cause and delayed effect relationship.
To say that Desmond’s memory of meeting Daniel at the hatch was not in mis brain when he went to bed, but was somehow written into it during the night as a result of an event 3 to 6 years previously is ridiculous. Why that night? Why not the night before, or the next night? Why the 3 to 6 year gap?
Imfromthepast’s explanation was exactly my explanation until I re-watched eps. 1-3. I would now say this about anyone *except* Desmond. Daniel was extremely emphatic about the fact that “the rules don’t apply” to Desmond. The rules–presumably the rules outlined in this blog post–don’t apply to Desmond, and I now believe that to mean that Desmond’s past CAN be changed, but only his. Why the three-year gap before the memory came to Desmond? That’s my only remaining question about that aspect. If it were anyone else, and if Desmond and Penny hadn’t had a conversation about why he just suddenly remembered talking to Daniel at the hatch, then I would chalk it up to editing.
agreed.
I think it’s cos Desmond sort of ‘exists twice’ at the time Daniel talks to him on the Island: Once on the Island and once off-island on his boat in another timeline.
only ‘exists once’, on island and Locke is sort of catching the train of his (single) timeline. Richard is just living his live on from the moment Locke talks to him and so he obviously knows about the conversation from now on.
On the other hand, Richard (btw, which one is “Richmond”?
Please correct me if I got that wrong …
That is a solid explanation. “Whatever happened, happened” is the mantra of the season. With Desmond being the loophole, of course.
an addendum I would add to my above comment is that yes, I get the feeling that TPTB are implying that Desmond is special and there is some sort of communications going on there.
That concept is not to my liking, as it makes about as much sense as the scene in Frequency when Dennis Quaid is burning a message into his desk in the past and it somehow manages to be burning itself into the desk in the present in realtime.
If something is done in the past, its effects cascade toward the future, they don’t just magically appear in some arbitrary future moment.
They did say in an interview that it’s really not worth it trying to figure out how Desmond works. He’s just … different, I guess, as a result of the failsafe key turn.
Your cascading towards the future comment makes it sound like a “butterfly effect” type scenario, instead of a 1:1 relationship of cause/effect. The “Frequency” example would point to a scenario where past/present/future are all occurring simultaneously.
the butterfly effect is an allegory of chaos theory and doesn’t really apply to time travel. It illustrates how small changes in a system can result in large effects. This is true with or without time travel, so it’s a wash.
I think Brent is referring to the movie “Butterfly Effect” (with Ashten Kuscher) where time-travelling has a cascading of cause & effect events … I do not think he is actually referring to the actual “butterfly effect” concept.
I’m totally on board with what you present in this article.
I think the issue where it gets murky…even for me…is the issue of the LOSTies doing the jumping. When Jin from 2005 jumps in time back to 1988, does that mean that on that specific day in 1988 there was a 14-year old Jin living in Korea and also a 30-year old Jin washed up on a beach on the island? Or are we assuming that these jumps are taking place on the island only.
also, is time moving forward at the same rate, even during the jumps? In other words, I can pause my TV and jump back (and then forward a bit), but in the meantime, Live TV is always moving at the same speed. Should we assume that if the LOSTies spend the next 365 days “jumped” into 1988, that their bodies will have aged a year? (which hearkens to Alpert and other aging issues).
i think its some of these ancillary ramifications that make it hard to fully get a handle on the time travel.
To answer your questions, Yes, in 1988 there is a young Jin in Korea and an adult Jin on the Island, and yes, the time jumping Losties are aging normally. If they would have started a stopwatch the instant Ben turned the wheel and kept it going, it would record time independent of the local time.
In fact, no stopwatch is needed. Just keep an eye on Locke’s gunshot wound. It’s rate of healing should tell you what you need to know.
However, people heal on the Island faster than they do in the outside world due to the magical healing properties. So Locke doesn’t make a great stopwatch, at least in my conventional ideas of how long that should take. Should the Island heal him in 3 days? 12 days? 4 weeks? I don’t know. Depends. It’s kind of like asking how old Richard is. Answer: OLD.
I meant use Locke’s wound as an example that time is flowing for the Losties, but not necessarily as a measuring tool for how fast. I would assume it is flowing just as fast for them as anyone else, or else conversations would be very annoying.
so what about the fact that we’ve been watching the O6 in 2008 and the LOSTies in 2005? I know it’s only speculation at this point…but how much of those 3 years in between when the O6 leave and when the O6 come back do you think we’ll get? Seems to me at some point they’re going to have to skip over a huge chunk of the LOSTies time on the island to catch up with when the O6 come back in the picture…but maybe not.
You are assuming that when the O6 return to the Island it will be 2008. Remember the Island is gone in 2008, has been since 2005. Maybe in order to return to the Island, they must go to it in another time.
Of course, another angle to consider is the Ajira water bottle. Maybe they take an Ajira flight to the Island and it is the O6 chasing the Losties in the outrigger.
I don’t endorse that theory, but its possible. I am just pointing out ways to avoid 3 years of time jumping.
Oh, and keep in mind that the Losties aren’t in 2005 anymore. As of The Little Prince, they are in 1988.
I actually really like the theory that it is the O6, or at least someone else that we know, chasing Locke and crew. If it was just random Others, they wouldn’t have paid such careful attention to not showing them at all.
By the by, anyone wondering if Dr. Marvin Candle’s fear at the rabbits being put close to one another will come back to haunt us reeeeeally soon?
Jimzip
I do NOW! That makes great sense. That makes the Orchid experiment film have even more meaning now! Nice post jimzip!
Remember, we’ve seen a similar effect on the show before, too. In the episode “The Man Behind the Curtain.” Just saying.
“does that mean that on that specific day in 1988 there was a 14-year old Jin living in Korea and also a 30-year old Jin washed up on a beach on the island? Or are we assuming that these jumps are taking place on the island only.”
Yes, I think there was. I believe that Richard had 2 compasses as well.
I think people have a problem with the definition of a person that sci-fi has given us. If you really think about a human being in strictly scientific terms, the you from 5 minutes ago is different from the you right now. Your brain has made new connections, some of you skin cells have flaked off, some of your internal cells have died, others have regenerated. You’re not identical to the you from 5 minutes ago. Even more than that, in space-time terms, even if none of those things happened to your body, the you from 5 minutes ago existed at a different interval in space-time and was a younger version of you. You’re not the same. That, to me, is the best way to eliminate that sort of thinking when it comes to “2 of the same person existing at the same space-time.” There can be two compasses because one has aged, it has changed, probably both physically and chemically (rust.) They are not the same compass. Sort of.
“Should we assume that if the LOSTies spend the next 365 days “jumped” into 1988, that their bodies will have aged a year? ”
Yes, I think that’s fair to say. 24 hours is 24 hours, no matter when those hours are taking place, or when you are living out those hours.
Richard Alpert and crew, IMO, are part of the island, in metaphysical terms, and that’s why they’re not time-jumping like the Losties. That probably has to do with their age. As to why Richard is ageless, I don’t think the answer has much to do with time travel, since Richard seemed so clueless to the concept when Locke brought it up.
And imfromthepast, please let me know if you disagree with this. I’m just so totally psyched that my favorite show of all time is now including one of my favorite sci-fi concepts of all time (this, and cyborgs), that I could read this stuff for day.s
I agree with everything you said here.
Further, a note about the compass. This is in response to Dolce’s comment from the top comment thread because i can’t respond there.
When Richard fixed Locke’s leg, he gave him the compass to give to himself in order to convince Richard to listen to Locke because the next time Locke would meet Richard he wouldn’t recognize him. Therefore the compass that Richard gives to Locke must have some sort of significance to the 1954 Richard.
I would speculate that the 1954 Richard probably had that very compass, his compass in his pocket and when Locke gave it to him, he recognized it as his and it served as proof that Locke was telling the truth.
Yeah that makes sense. Otherwise he’s just giving him some meaningless compass. Its not like its a fancy 2005 compass or something that would convince him that he’s really from the future. That’s not what Locke was even trying to do. He was just trying to convince him that he’d talked to Richard before.
@Hipster,
I have to disagree with you about the 2 compasses … As of this point in the LOST story, there is only 1 compass that exists in the LOST “mythology” …
1954 – Locke give compass to Richard
1960s – Richard shows compass to young Locke
Late 1990s to Early 2000s – Richard gives compass to Locke
This is a totally, self-contained, infinite loop! … In this infinite loop, time/aging is inconsequential!
My theory about why the Losties are time-jumping (on the Island) is because the O6 are off the Island. I think it will be proven that they wouldn’t have time-jumped if everyone stayed on the Island … I like to think of it that the Losties still have a link to the outside world in the O6, which is why they are time-jumping on the Island. If they were linked only to the Island (ala the Others) then they would be moving thru space-time with the Island.
As to why Richard is ageless … I think it will be revealed that he is the last immortal (best described as a “Titan” ala Greek Mythology with Smokey = Cerberus & Island = Gateway to Hades)
OK.
To answer your 2nd question, the On-Island Losties are still moving forward in time, since all the events On-Island that we are seeing occur 3yrs prior (in reference to real-world calendar) to the O6/Off-Island events we are seeing … It’s the Bill & Ted Rules for Time-Travelling ;P
I get this idea of a re-syncing process that Locke has to accomplish at the Orchid. Locke pushing the FDW could coincide instantly with the 70 hour window that Ms Hawking mentioned. The “record player needle” might stop skipping then but it’s a mystery where the needle will come to rest.
in these posts, you guys are trying to equate desmond’s sudden insight of memory to the other timelines and people like richard having always known these memories from the past, whereas it seems like desmond is creating new memories as these events happen. these are completely reconcilable – THE RULES DON’T APPLY TO DESMOND!
Desmond is a caveat, granted. But the rest of the events work out the way I described in the article.
And that’s the main point. You simply can’t include Desmond in the equation when you try to figure out how time is working. They’ve already said he’s special. Any funny thing with him can be easily answered with, “well Desmond’s special.”
I just want to know how the compass came into existence. If Richard gave it to Locke to give it Richard, who gave it to Richard to give it Locke?
chicken/egg
Richard had one compass before 1954. We’ll call that Compass A. Then Locke showed up and gave him another compass, the same compass, only older, about 50 years older. That’s compass B. After 1954, Richard had both compasses A and B. Then, when he met Locke again in 2004 when he bandaged him up, he gave him compass A, which Locke then gave to Richard when the Island went back in time. At that point, that compass is 50 years old, so it is compass B.
It makes sense if you assume that Richard is travelling strictly along one timeline, not jumping like Locke. Every time Locke sees Richard in 1954, it is the first time Richard has met Locke. he always has that fresh 1954 compass. Therefore, there’s no reason to assume that one of these compasses is 10,000 years old or something, because when Richard gives Locke the one he gave to Richard, it is always the newer one in Richard’s possession. We don’t know what happened to the other compass that Richard has in 2005, but all we know is that it is slightly older than it should be.
exactly what I was getting at in my above post.
everything should be peachy as long as Richard kept those compasses straight and didn’t accidentally give Locke the compass he received from Locke. Of course there’s plenty of opportunity to switch them out at some point.
Okay, but that’s operating under the assumption that Richard has Compass A which he makes no indication of. I’m fine with us having to fill in the pieces, but to me this is where things start to fall apart when writers get clever with time travel. I personally believe we’re supposed to assume that the compass that Richard gave Locke was, “whoa, given to him by Locke!” and just move on. Which is fine, until we realize that the compass couldn’t have just materialized in time-space, so we go, “Oh, Richard must have that compass in 1954, but just didn’t realize it was the same compass.”
That’s fine for something like the compass because it’s (at least at this point) rather trivial but when then we see Danielle and Jin and have to assume, “well, she was just crazy, so of course she didn’t remember.” Pretty soon we’re going to be wondering why nobody recognizes Chewbacca despite the fact that he used to be a leading freedom fighter and simpatico with Yoda back in the day.
“That’s fine for something like the compass because it’s (at least at this point) rather trivial but when then we see Danielle and Jin and have to assume, “well, she was just crazy, so of course she didn’t remember.” Pretty soon we’re going to be wondering why nobody recognizes Chewbacca despite the fact that he used to be a leading freedom fighter and simpatico with Yoda back in the day.”
LOL!!! MAD PROPS SLIMCHICKEN!!! THAT IS HILARIOUS!!!
I think IF IF IF Russo were alive, this “new” memory would have entered her mind, like happened to Desmond, and shed now recognize Jin. But since shes dead, its a mute point.
I have to disagree with your theory that there are 2 compasses … Given your theory of events, Compass B would age 50yrs with each subsequent time-jump/loop (50yrs. 1st time, 100yrs. 2nd time, etc etc), while Compass A would not age at all (in 1954) …
As I stated previously, the compass exists in an infinite, on-Island time-loop (that is totally self-contained).
Thanks, Eric. Apologies, I see now some of this gone over earlier. I think your theory is interesting and hope it, rather than my cynicism, is validated.
I still think the compass, Danielle/Jin, Locke/Ehtan conundrums are a little curious and don’t bode well for how they’re going to handle things going forward. I really am afraid we’re getting into Star Wars prequel territory here.
I appreciate they’re trying to bring back old storylines and revisit familiar characters, but they can’t do so in a way that doesn’t square with what we already know to be true – particularly given how many of their fans are freaks like us that post comments on articles like this. If every episode brings up questions like this, pretty soon the whole house of cards is coming down.
Whatever, just enjoy the show…you gotta let some stuff slide…
says who?
Here’s my problem with this posting – the ‘Locke and Richard” thing – Future Locke *DID* affect the past because he met Richard and gave him the compass and said look me up in 2 years. If he had not done that, Richard would never get the compass and would not look up Locke in 2 years, no tests would be done for a leader and there would most certainly be a different outcome. You saw that Locke doing all of this did not change anything but it did.
They’re just using following The Theory of Time Travel by James Cameron as their guide.
I agree with Slimchicken! Use the Rules of Time Travel by James Cameron (ala Terminator 1 only)
Actually, I can make the argument that Locke giving Richard the compass in 1954 (from 2000s) did not change the past (since Richard does visit Locke in 1956, etc etc) … In fact, I would point out that if Locke DOES NOT GIVE Alpert the compass, then he actually does change past events (since Alpert will not go to visit Locke in 1956, etc etc).
Now you got it.
Any comment on the Locke-Ethan meeting? I have a lot of faith in the writers, so I’m sure it’s not a screw up, but I am curious about how they’re going to explain Ethan knowing Locke before Locke crashed on the island…
Trevor, I’m with you on hoping that the writers start to square some of these circles, otherwise it’s going to be a Star Wars prequel redux like I mention above. I guess I have faith that the writers of Lost won’t just haphazardly throw characters we’re already familiar with into these new storylines without considering everything we know already, but early evidence isn’t exactly encouraging from my perspective.
One could add the Ethan-Locke meeting just adds to the Others belief that “Locke is Special” … Up until this point, we thought it was just because he is able to walk, but what if Ethan goes tells them “That dude I shot near the beechcraft a while back … Well he is now on the Island”.
Eric, I appreciate your optimism. I certainly hope you are right and they make sense of this stuff. I’m with with Lost until the end, thick or thin, so, please let you be right.
The Rules of LOST Time-Travel
1. Jumping back to the Past – Terminator Rules
2. Time-jumping Losties sense of time – Bill & Ted Rules
3. Meeting Oneself – Timecop Rules
I’ve never seen Timecop, but I like 1 and 2! Good stuff.
The Timecop Rule …
“The same matter cannot exist in the exact same space-time” … i.e. A time-traveler (from the future) cannot touch his past self or he will cease to exist (in all space-time).
Its what came to my mind when I saw the initial Orchid video.
To back up your theory, Daniel said “if it didn’t happen, it can’t happen.” Whose to say whether or not it happened? Sure, you’ll fail if you try to change things, but not if you just do what you’re supposed to (and always have) done. I would also venture to guess that the Island moved to 2007 or 2008 when Ben turned the FDW, which is why Daniel meeting Desmond happened just before Des remembered it. And also because it’s the only way the O6 can get back to the island and reunite without skipping 3 years of Sawyer and Juliet and the Freighties.
Also, I like the 2 compass theory (infinite loops have bothered me ever since the terminator movies). With 2, it’s less of a circle and more like a line that just loops back over itself, covering some of the same ground twice. But Locke becoming leader of the Others still seems to have happened because Richard thought he was supposed to lead, because Locke told him he was leader, because Richard thought he was supposed to lead, because Locke told him . . .
Can someone please explain to me how the “2 Compass Theory” is NOT also a Temporal Causality Loop?
There is one compass, however, by virtue of being brought to 1954 and left with Richard, there are 2 copies of it, coexisting for a little while, until Richard gives the younger of the two to Locke, leaving one.
This assumes that Richard has his own compass in 1954, when Locke shows him his. It is a safe assumption because the compass would serve no purpose unless it had meaning to Richard in some way.
Great Article. Finally someone is spelling it out in a clear and concise way. I completely agree. All the events of island season 5 have already occured in the island history—the only exception (and this is why things get confusing) is Daniel and Desmond outside the Hatch.
I think LOST fans are guilty of often over analysing things when sometimes the simple answer really is the best.
Wow, imfromthepast, it is really big of you to tolerate our ignorance regarding the subject of Farraday’s time travel theory…
puh-lease.
While I understand the glee of geeking out on fantastical subjects, you’re missing the key issue at hand. Farraday and his mom claim that you shouldn’t bother with trying to change the past because there is an inevitable, unalterable conclusion.
The key issue, oh time lord, is that altering events with a knowledge of the expected outcome has to change events. I’m guessing momma Farraday understands that because she worked verrry hard to convince Desmond to not try. If she believed her own theory, she would have just let him buy the ring.
If Richard had stolen baby Locke from the incubator, everyone Locke touched in his life would have been changed. Maybe Locke would still be bald and consumed with low self esteem as an island dwelling adult, but Locke’s girlfriend/mother/high school coach would have different lives.
…and Richard’s Dalai Lama visit? There’s no reason he would have been disappointed by Locke not choosing well. He already knows Locke time hops as an adult. Seems pretty special to me. Choosing a holy trinket hardly matters. It’s is liklier that Richard was hoping he would meet a child Locke at a moment when his mind was inhabited by a time hopping adult Locke (like Desmond’s more palatable version of time travel). When he realized it was kid Locke only, he knew he would have a long wait to get whatever he needed. Same with teen Locke’s invitation to science camp. Richard may have been fishing for a time hopping Locke, not a choosen one.
Thanks for taking the time to write an article, but you presume too much.
I agree with you Mandeville that Faraday/Hawking’s so-called ‘rules’ are more grounded in ‘what we want’ than ‘what’s really possible’. If nothing can be changed…past (as Faraday says) or future (as Hawking says), then the entire mission of getting the O6 back is pointless. Because if they weren’t supposed to leave, then they couldn’t have left…and if they’re supposed to come back, they will. Because you can’t change the future, right? So Ms. Hawking, Ben et all should be all Alfred E. Neuman about the O6 issue, *if* she & Daniel are telling the truth. Daniel/Hawking *want* you to believe in determinism…but I think they know it’s not true.
I think the answer to a lot of these seeming ‘paradoxes’ starts with the ideas of branching time, indeterminism, and realizing that Daniel’s little ‘rules’ aren’t really rules at all. Why didn’t Desmond remember Daniel’s message until 2008? Because in Desmond’s world, it didn’t HAPPEN ’til 2008. Why didn’t Rousseau remember Jin in 2005? Because their 1988 meeting didn’t happen in her world like, ever. She was already dead by the time it did.
A year ago, when we first met Daniel Faraday…seeing him not know why he was sobbing as he watched the fake 815 wreckage being broadcast on television…I posited the theory to a few friends that present day Daniel was sobbing because he has a suppressed memory of a past trauma that won’t occur until future Daniel travels back in time on the island. I know…it’s trippy and brain-bending and mind-melting. It’s also elegantly simple compared to so many of the paradox-avoidance theories I’m seeing.
I’m not sure if anyone has ever mentioned Arthur Prior in any of these forums etc…but if you read up a bit on him…you’ll find he was one of the first to strongly pursue the ideas of indeterminism and branching time theory in academia (though certainly not the first to put the idea forth). You’ll also find that he spent some time at Oxford(!)…where as part of the John Locke Lectures series(!) he presented a lecture on the topic of Time & Modality…in…1956(!!!).
Just some food for thought. Personally, I don’t think time travel equates to flashbacks…on *any* level.
yo
yo, imfromthepast, you’re right, you are patronizing! How can you be so sure that you understand whats happening and be so condensending to everyone else who can admit to having our minds blown by this amazing show..I mean are you really going with Locke meeting Richard before Locke was born is not a paradox? The whole show is based on the idea that there is truth in paradox: science = faith, good guys = bad guys, shipwrecked = salvation, fortune = curse, hero = loser, life = death, past = future, etc.,Besides it is science fiction, you know that right? I love the theorizing and always have appreciated your efforts, it just seemed off that you seemed so certain that your ideas were gospel and the rest of us need to ketch Up on r book learnin…I hate to be negative, but the beauty of this show is not knowing what is going on and being blown away week after week, and like it or not you don’t know whats going on any more then we do McDreamy!
I thought it made a lot of sense. Remember, this show is not written to be on the Physisist Channel. There needs to be some simplicity to it.
It seems like a lot of this bickering would be resolved if you guys read the following links:
http://dangerousminorities.blogspot.com/2009/01/jigsaw-falling-into-place-part-3-only.html
http://www.timelooptheory.com/the_timeline.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4266329.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4300774.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4300764.html
[...] Note: Before reading my piece below, read imfromthepast’s very well-written piece, “Time Travel for Dummies.” Then, read or re-read the Wikipedia article on Predestination Loops you should have read in [...]
Screw you man, why should anyone be dictated how to think by you?
And it’s pretty arrogant and stupid to tell people to go watch Grey’s Anatomy (e.g. horrible and boring) because the confusion level of Lost has been upped a notch. That’s like saying you are superior in some way to the rest of the Lost audience. Every viewer counts. Even though Lost is not going be cancelled, it doesn’t hurt even better ratings.
And your logic is a wee bit faulty.
A jump in time, going backwards, can’t equate to a flashback, for a simple reason. The reason for that is the same reason Einstein came up with the theory of relativity. Yep, that’s right, it’s all about your reference frame.
Like when Danielle & Co. found Jin in 1988. At that particular point in time, there are 2 Jins in the world. A younger one in Korea and a much older one on the island. Now, the way I see it, any flashback’s reference frame is the character’s birth date. So, effectively, the Jin we see is much older than he is supposed to be, if it were a proper flashback. In effect, Jin is interfering with the past. Because back in season 1, Rousseau’s distress message made no mention whatsoever of them rescuing a stranger at sea. So, indeed, it is legitimate to question the paradoxical nature of that encounter.
And it seems stupid for the writers to include time travel in the plot if they want us to just sit back and be all ~ “never mind all that sci-fi time travel stuff; it’s nothing more than flashbacks”..
Still though, it was a fair attempt at explaining things for those who might not be as savvy and I can appreciate that. Maybe watching a few episodes of Grey’s Anatomy would soothe you over?
I am not saying the time jumps are flashbacks, just that they have the same impact on the present, as in they are in the past.
If a time jump brings them to an episode in Season 1, such as Aaron’s birth, the events will play out just as they did when it happened in Season 1.
If the camera angle had been right, I’m sure we could have seen Sawyer hiding in the bushes.
no one should take me too seriously, as I all too often employ hyperbole to make a point, and as a result come off as arrogant. Although, truth be told, I am arrogant, and I do think anyone that disagrees with me is hopelessly ignorant, but again, don’t take me too seriously.
I think you’re kinda cute when you get all arrogant and “holier than though”. Want to catch a movie sometime?
Einstein MIT Harvard Cal-Tech Princeton Stanford
Perimeter institute + All space-time Physics + NASA = 0
Why Relativity theory is not Physics and why Einstein’s “thought” = 0
Visual Effects and the confusions of “Modern” physics
r ——— Light sensing of moving objects ——- S
Actual object—– Light ——— Visual object
r – ——-cosine (wt) + i sine (wt) – S = r [cosine (wt) + i sine (wt)]
Newton– Kepler’s time visual effects — Time dependent Newton
Particle ————– Visual effects ——————– Wave
Line of Sight: r cosine wt
r ——————- r cosine (wt) line of sight light aberrations
A moving object with velocity v will be visualized by
light sensing through an angle (wt);w = constant and t= time
Also, sine wt = v/c; cosine wt = √ [1-sine² (wt) = √ [1-(v/c) ²]
A visual object moving with velocity v will be seen as S
S = r [cosine (wt) + i sine (wt)] = r Exp [i wt]; Exp = Exponential
S = r [√ [1-(v/c) ²] + ỉ (v/c)] = S x + i S y
S x = Visual along the line of sight = r [√ [1-(v/c) ²]
This Equation is special relativity length contraction formula
And it is just the visual effects caused by light aberrations of a
moving object along the line of sight.
In a right angled velocity triangle A B C: Angle A = wt; angle B = 90°; Angle C = 90° -wt
AB = hypotenuse = c; BC = opposite = v; CA= adjacent = c √ [1-(v/c) ²]
Well, Duh!
imfromthepast has a point, why couldn’t the show’s notion of time travel be as simple as that?
he has raised very informative points, just as other comment-ers noted. and I myself believe that the science behind the show is not supposed to be complex; Lost ain’t shown on the Discovery channel. get what I mean?
on a final note, Lost is supposed to be a work of fiction. its just a show on TV for crying out loud. I know we’re all obsessed fans, but please, nobody needs to get all cranky and Einstein-y about it. let’s all enjoy it and get increasingly confused by it and make up wild theories about it.
If you are having trouble with my Flashback metaphor, try thinking of it this way:
Daniel said the Island is like a record that is skipping. In this approach, the history of the Island is likened to the grove of the record, or the song, and the Left Behinders are represented by the needle. The time jumps are like the needle skipping to different parts of the song.
Here’s the point: The song doesn’t change. When a record skips, you get to hear different parts of the song, but this doesn’t mean the artist is rerecording the song every time the record skips.
What happened, happened.
You can’t change anything.
if you still want to argue with me because of my Tongue-In-Cheek way of writing, but can’t find fault with my reasoning, I misspelled some words for you.
you can criticize them.
Thanks imfromthepast,
I don’t see why people thought you were being condescending or arrogant. I thought your post made total sense and it really helped me a lot to understanding this whole season, which I’m loving every minute of.
I do have a question that’s been plagueing me more than all the others, and it may sound silly but I just need a clear and simple answer if anyone can help me.
Although time is kind of relative now, what is the difference in time on the island vs. on land where the O6 are. I mean, I know the Left Behinder’s are jumping around so time is kind of relative but hours are still passing for them as people, just in the same way the hours are passing for the O6. So if it’s been 3 years for the O6, then how much time has gone by for the Left Behinders?
Another way to ask it is if there are approximately 8,766 hours in a year, then 26,298 hours have gone by for the O6 since they left the island. So how many hours have gone by for the Left Behinders. Judging by the way the show has been going, it only seems like it’s been a day or two since the Freighter blew up and Ben turned the FDW.
Are the events on the island supposed to be past events? Or am I to assume that they are happening concurrently with the O6 events? When the O6 come back, will we see the Left Behinder’s 3 years after all the things we’ve been seeing so far from them? Like, will they be 3 years older?
I know that was like 10 questions to really just ask the one. And as I said, it has been bugging me so please, someone help me.
Thanks again!
you can’t please everyone.
Regarding your question:
There are two perspectives operating on the show now. That of the O6, which is shared by the rest of the world, and that of the Left Behinders, who are jumping through time on the Island.
To the O6, three years have passed since Ben turned the wheel, so to them it is 2007.
To the Left Behinders a much smaller time has passed since Ben turned the wheel. They have accrued a certain amount of time. We don’t know exactly how much time, but we can guess it’s been about a day or two.
The important thing to keep in mind is there is no correlation between the LBs and the O6. It is entirely an editorial choice which events to display when. In other words there is no universal clock for the two groups. It is not as if when Jin arrived on shore with Danielle on the Island, the O6 were simultaneously meeting at the marina with Ben. These events are shown concurrently in the episode, but that is just an editorial choice. Jin and the French team arrived on the Island in 1988. Chronologically speaking this event took place 19 years before Ben told Kate that he was the one behind the custody suit.
The answer to your question about the difference between the O6’s clock and the LB’s clock will have to wait until the two are brought together and they can compare clocks.
I will tell you this, it is much more likely that the O6’s clock will be ahead of the LB’s clock by a significant amount, but that is ultimately in Darlton’s hands.
I would tend to think that you are right, that when the two groups are finally reunited Sawyer will probably ask who the little boy is and will be shocked that he is ‘baby’ Aaron.
I misunderstood some of your questions, but my answer is the same. I don’t think the O6 and the Left Behinders are going to be in sync when the O6 return. It would be much more interesting if they aren’t.
Kudos to your use of hyperbole. I fully admit that I’m not exactly the first to understand all of this, and I do certainly appreciate your attempt to spell it out. Inasmuch as this is a fictitious television show depicting something that hasn’t been proven, (yet lol) it made great sense.
I just have one teeny weeny observation.
“Expecting Danielle to recognize Jin after 16 years assumes he doesn’t time jump away five minutes into next week’s episode. ….”
I don’t know about that. Remembering someone you see for a brief moment in time (if he does indeed jump away soonish) after being mostly alone on an island for 16 years would make you recognize anyone you had seen in that span of time- simply because you wouldn’t have other faces to confuse things with. But… Danielle is hardly stable. She is *petrified* of Smokey and the people who took her baby away from her. She might recognize Jin and then not trust herself- not trust what she saw later as real. Certainly that would explain why she stuck to the background whenever Jin was around…
Sorry. I tend to focus on really insignificant parts of the bigger picture.
whatever the reason for Danielle not treating Jin like someone she knew, it is no excuse for crying paradox, that’s all I’m saying.
It’s like, “Oooh, there’s a problem. This episode indicates that Danielle knew Jin prior to the 815 crash!”
Why say it’s a paradox, when any mundane explanation would suffice.
Anytime I run into someone I met years ago that doesn’t recognize me, I am much more apt to assume a mundane explanation as opposed to think the universe is about to implode.
[...] For those who find themselves completely LOST, Docarzt offers Time Travel for Dummies. [...]
Thanks for taking the time to explain this in a way thats so easy to understand.
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