It was nice to see Christian walking around and looking so... well... undead. And this got me to thinking. Why did the writers bring him back into the story at this point? I won't give anything away here, but if you watched the promo for "Cabin Fever," it seemed to indicate that we are going to be adding a few more recruits to our undead brigade.
What are we building up to for our season closer? Probably a number of different plot arcs will be narrowed and a few new ones will leave us hanging until next season.
We've heard the producers tell use that some characters could be classified as undead. They gave us a few bones to pick on, mentioning Yemi, Kate's horse and Christian Shephard. Are there anymore?
I think our armchair adventurer Locke is undead. This happened when Ben shot him. He may not even realize that he is undead, but take my word for it. He's dead.
Looking back over the past episodes, I noticed that characters who died and were buried were never seen again (except in visions). But Charlie, now we've seen him physically interact with Hurley. Christian's body was on his way to a funeral and eventual burial, and his body disappeared. Yet Christian has been seen and has corporal abilities the same as a living person. Yemi's body was on the Island, never buried, and was able to talk to his brother. And we know Mikhail refused to take a dirt nap.
Now, a question has come up in the last few weeks as to the reason why Danielle and Karl were found in a shallow grave. It's because the freighter folk knows that they must bury a body in order to make sure it doesn't become undead.
Which leads me to this conclusion. Claire is undead. She died when the rocket hit the bungalow she was residing in. And how many of our other favorite characters are walking compost heaps?
Oh, by the way, we'll see Alex again.
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Your observations are on the money which, if true, is both enlightening as well as a relief that we will not see Nikki and Paulo ever again!!!
I want to believe Alex is undead just so we can see her but Emerson sort of alluded to the fact that we will not be seeing her. In a recent interview Emerson said he was sad to see the actress playing Alex leave because they had good chemistry and he enjoyed working with her
So.... Richard is undead too huh ?
You got it. I left the question open to see how many characters the blog users could come up with.
Hi and welcome, WLN!
You know, I was actually starting to think along similar lines, but then someone pointed out an example that shoots the whole idea all to hell: Ben's mom. She died, and was presumably either cremated or buried, off-island. And what about Kate's black horse, for that matter? And Libby? She was buried but appeared to Michael (though I suppose a case could be made that he was just seeing things...). And Dave! Dave never existed at all.
So, we've either got different and separate phenomena, or else a situation where the Island/Smokey can inhabit a dead body in order to affect the physical world OR show you people and things plucked from your mind in a more illusory manner.
So each season has been a zombie season all along?
I think the idea that Claire is dead is really interesting. Yet, I'm wondering why we haven't seen Goodwin again, or Ethan for that matter. Also, wouldn't that apply to the 100+ members of the Dharma Initiative who are in the open grave. None of them were buried, like Paulo and Nikki, or Libby. These rules would have to stay consistent, right, otherwise anything goes.
I think Claire might still be alive because the Island needs her to be. The writers have established that the Island is a living being, a character in its own right. Some, like Michael, can't be killed until the Island says so. Claire may be in the same boat, same as Sawyer, who managed to avoid being tagged even once by rapid machine-gun fire.
Hopefully Thursday night's episode will provide us with a clearer picture.
I think Claire is the only member of the cast that is undead. I think that Jacob or Christian will tell her in the next episode that if she leaves the island that she will really become dead. This is why Claire gives the baby to Kate to take off the island.
If Locke is undead, and Walt appeared to Locke to tell him he has "work to do", could we then assume, from the final installment of Missing Pieces, that Jack is undead too?
Christian, moments before Jack wakes up, tells Vincent to go wake up his son, and that he has work to do.
For that matter, could everyone one the plane have become undead?
The producers, in a podcast (March 21, 2008) , has already classified apparent living entities as a apparition (Ben's mother, Dave), a manifestation of the Smoke Monster (Medusa Spider) and characters that are undead (Kate's horse, Christian).
I don't think it's a rule if you die and are not buried, you will become undead. I think it's up to the Island. But if you do die and are buried, then the Island cannot help you.
I really don't like using the word Zombie. A man of science could see the undead as living in a different timeline, a man of faith can say it's the will of god. But I don't think the producers/writers are going for the cliche George Romaro flesh-eaters.
WLN do you think Ben suspected Locke would still be around as undead Locke when he shot him?
Matt
Since Ben seemed to think that Locke was going to be useful to the Island and his own plans, I would say that would be a real smart thing to do. Keep him connected to the Island as one of the undead.
Wait, they finally kill off Claire and i'm still stuck with her? Dirty pool. I like the theory though. Maybe Ben stayed behind with Alex specifically to bury her? Because he didnt want her coming back? Maybe living death isnt all its cracked up to be, that seems to be a fairly common theme in pop-culture.
And how does this involve the Rules?
Like the theory, Big question im thinkings is what happens if you bury someone alive!! Maybe the Nikki Paulo episode atually leads to something.
What interest me is not who is dead or undead. (besides sawyer checked claire for lifesigns) Any appearance of the dead can easily be writen off as halucinations (dave) which wouldn't be hard to imagine someone who went through a tragic event like a plane crash, having. BUT What about the dead who are seen by more than one person! that is what is interesting. Sawyer saw kates horse. Miles & Hurly have seen Claire/Jack's Dad. NONE OF THIS Explains how Walt can appear to Locke and others (shannon, sayid). Or do we need to asume Walt is dead too. In which case, who's living with grandma?!?!?!?!
im with mark b, they finally kill claire and we're stuck with her. lol. so, i would guess then that all the black rock peeps would be the original hostiles/inhabitants, assuming that none of them were ever buried? i really dig this theory, but, i swear i heard darlton say years ago that everyone (815ers) wasnt dead on the island. i hate that the phrase "undead" is being used so frequently with this show that i love. p.s. bury claire.
To me, the two most obvious additions to the list of undead should be Ben and Widmore. That would certainly explain why neither can kill the other.
Why would Ben tell Locke to stay with him, then, during the gunfight at New Otherton? If Locke is undead then how could he die?
I like your thinking. I covered the dead in an earlier post as well. I just don't think Claire is dead though. I think Miles could sense Christian around her. Youa re also forgetting that there was a deleted scene when Claire had a vision that lead her out of the house and into the backyard... but I like your thinking.. keep it up..
Calebspeaks said:
"besides sawyer checked claire for lifesigns"
Yes he did, but it seems the undead (like Christian, who has been confirmed by the producers as undead), can interact with the living. Christian was able to hold Aaron. Charlie punched Hurley. So, I sense that the undead can appear and act very much alive.
Alan Aagard said:
"Why would Ben tell Locke to stay with him, then, during the gunfight at New Otherton? If Locke is undead then how could he die?"
I don't think Locke knows he's undead, and Ben doesn't want him to know that fact yet, so he treats him as a noraml living human.
gusteaux said:
"To me, the two most obvious additions to the list of undead should be Ben and Widmore. That would certainly explain why neither can kill the other."
I like that idea, a lot. Very possible, or the other explanation could be, like Michael, the Island won't let them be killed.
UKLostit said:
"Like the theory, Big question im thinkings is what happens if you bury someone alive!! Maybe the Nikki Paulo episode atually leads to something."
Oh please, No, No, No. "They're alive, they're alive." Hey, I'm 55 years old, and sure, I thought Nikki was hot, but, no, no, no, there's no way I could take either of them for 5 minutes, what more another season.
WLN:
I don't believe that Locke is dead. You speculate that Locke died when Ben shot him and left him in the pit. But do you believe that someone who is dead can kill someone who is living? Locke killed Naomi AFTER Ben shot him.
gusteaux said:
"WLN: I don't believe that Locke is dead. You speculate that Locke died when Ben shot him and left him in the pit. But do you believe that someone who is dead can kill someone who is living? Locke killed Naomi AFTER Ben shot him."
I don't think someone who died can be in anyway still living or even undead. But in the LOST mythology, yes. Do you believe a dead Christian can hold a baby and pet a dog (mobisode number 13)? Can a undead horse trample the ground cover with it's undead hoofs? Can a undead Charlie punch Hurley in the arm?
It seems that these confirmed undead characters can perform most of the corporal actions that a fully living person can.
I think we will find out that undead on LOST is a different state of being than dead and the Island decides if you are going to be undead. I mentioned above the idea that it's possible that the undead are really living in a different time line, which is possible since a type of time travel has been shown to be a major plot arc on the show.
Good theory...
but people who are not buried
didn't come back including
"The Polar Bear" :)
I really like this theory. A couple things I thought of while reading everyone elses comments:
-Boone has been seen and he was buried.
-Harper is possibly undead. Goodwin seemed pretty fine with sleeping with Juliet even thought Harper was about...maybe the "undead" can't meet the needs of the living ;) She also seemed to disappear like a ghost in the night in the jungle scene with Juliet and Jack.
The only confirmed undead person other than Christian would be Richard imo. He hasn't aged and doesn't "remember birthdays".
WLN:
Your post is continuing to provoke questions. Here's another one:
Your speculation that burying a body prevents it from becoming undead made me think of what Locke told Paulo in Expose': "Nothing stays buried very long on this island." How does that statement relate to your theory, if at all?
gusteaux said:
"WLN: Your post is continuing to provoke questions. Here's another one:
Your speculation that burying a body prevents it from becoming undead made me think of what Locke told Paulo in Expose': "Nothing stays buried very long on this island." How does that statement relate to your theory, if at all?"
If you take this line of dialog in context, Locke is not talking about a body. He is referencing the Matryoshka doll that Paulo is trying to bury. We can see how this could be a through line linked to other items. Locke's case of knifes, the US Marshall's case, the Swan and so on. It could also have a symbolic meaning in reference to secrets. But in context, I would have to say it reflects the nature of hidden items eventually coming to light.
That's why LOST is such a clever show. The writers are very good at penning dialog that could suggest more than one meaning, but when we finally discover that meaning, as far as I can see, the meaning becomes very clear and without any ambiguity.
I don't agree with Locke being dead because when he is telling Sawyer that Ben shot him, he makes a comment about the bullet going into the same spot his appendix used to be. I took that as if he still had is appendix he would be dead.
I really like this thinking... I've thought since I saw the ep that Claire died, and recently started thinking that Jin died in the crash.
Personally, I think that if Locke is dead, then he died in the crash and that's why he can walk. Rose and Jin would be dead also, this is why Sun mourned him, his date of death on the tombstone was the same as the crash, and he can't leave the island. Maybe only people who have been to the island can see the "undead".
Some version of this is going on, I'm convinced of it.
forgiventhewarlord said:
"I really like this thinking... I've thought since I saw the ep that Claire died, and recently started thinking that Jin died in the crash.
Personally, I think that if Locke is dead, then he died in the crash and that's why he can walk. Rose and Jin would be dead also, this is why Sun mourned him, his date of death on the tombstone was the same as the crash, and he can't leave the island. Maybe only people who have been to the island can see the "undead". Some version of this is going on, I'm convinced of it."
Bingo, you get the prize. That's what I was going for with this theory. The reason I left some "holes" in my theory is I think it makes for a more interesting blog thread if I leave it up to the Docarzt posters to fill in some of the blanks.
In a recent blog entry, Doc suggest that the producers/writers we moving to a "game changing" ending for these season. This ending will make us have to reevaluate how we have been viewing the whole story. And I think this is what it is. Yes, ever since Pilot 1, we've been "seeing dead people."
As a working writer myself (click on my personal link for more information), it is a common ploy in plot development to throw a idea into the mix right at the very beginning, and wait until about the middle of the story to reveal it.
So, I agree with you. A lot more of our characters died in the crash, but the Island favored them, for what ever reasons, to become undead. And this is why many of them have to stay on the Island.
What say you Losties? Input.
Excuse the spelling mistakes in my last post. It's late here in Colorado. I need some sleep. Writer indeed.
I think that Locke being undead or something would be a bit too much of a straight up M. Night Shyamalan ripoff. But we'll see.
it's awesome to see that new writers still contribute for us.... long libe the island!
Very good theory. This would also explain how Naomi was able to crawl away after getting a knife thrown into her back.
However i think theres much more to this than meets the eye. If everyones just reanimated meat puppets running around, bumping into cabins, and trying to save their nonexistent lives, then who cares, and end the show.
I also dont belive that "the island" has any sort of consiousness to decide who gets zombiefied and who doesnt. I think it has great power/powers that can be used for good, or evil. We should be asking whos using it, and why........?
Hmmm. That may also be the reason why Jack said so insistently when he was trying to make his father's coffin get accepted to the plane "I need to bury my father".
I can swallow the "undead" interaction with the physical plane, but Jin being dead and STILL being able to get Sun preggers is a bit too much, don't you think? Or maybe Juliet lied to Sun and Ji Yeon is not Jin's? That would open a lot more theories. Feedback?
Reasons why this theory is shit -
Libby was buried and seen by Michael in "Meet Kevin Johnson".
Boone was buried and is seen by locke in "Further Instructions".
Goodwin WASNT buried and we dont see him running around scaring people.
Nice try, but spend a little more time fleshing your ideas out before you post them. You should know how critical the lost community is by now. Shame on you.
cheers!
Jonah
So, those that the Island favors and have died become the Undead, still interacting with those of the living.
Those that did not die, do not know this.
MAYBE - those that are on the LIST are the Island favorites, the Undead.
Those that are not on the list - well will just go crazy return to the Island and croak!
Yeh, there are some problems with the theory (although i think there is a piece of truth to it somehow). All of Dharma should be walking around since the pit was never covered over. Could get to be a crowded island pretty quick Super twist ending- they've been in New Zealand the whole time.
Jonah Oryszak said:
"Reasons why this theory is shit - Libby was buried and seen by Michael in "Meet Kevin Johnson". Boone was buried and is seen by locke in "Further Instructions".Goodwin WASNT buried and we dont see him running around scaring people. Nice try, but spend a little more time fleshing your ideas out before you post them. You should know how critical the lost community is by now. Shame on you. cheers! Jonah"
If you have read this thread, this theory has developed, with the helpful input of Docarzt posters, and it has a few elements to it.
1) If you are buried, no undead
2) The Island decides who will be undead (for what ever reasons)
3) Certain appraritions are just that, visions, not real.
In the March 21st, 2008 podcast from the producers, they list a number of different "sightings," and here is how they categorize them.
Ben's mother Emily = Apparition
Medusa Spider = Monster
Dave = Apparition/figment of imagination
Yemi = Monster
Walt = there are apparitions of Walt that may be monster related
Boone in Locke's dream = dream
Kate's horse = Undead
Christian = Undead
Now, podcasts are considered canon, except when it is evident that Damon and Carlton are making a joke, and the above list was their answer to a serious question.
We are obviously dealing with a number of different ways in which a character can be "seen." And since the producers have confirmed that there is a condition call UNDEAD, then I don't think it is beyond reason to speculate on which character are undead.
I think my initial theory and the additions to the theory by the users above is very "fleshed out" and has merit.
Well, thank you for contributing (I think?).
Mark Buehner said:
"Yeh, there are some problems with the theory (although i think there is a piece of truth to it somehow). All of Dharma should be walking around since the pit was never covered over. Could get to be a crowded island pretty quick Super twist ending- they've been in New Zealand the whole time."
No spoiler here, but watch the next episode. I think your question will be answered.
One question that I have with this theory,
which is a good one, is this...
So, when Sawyer picks up Claire from the rubble, wouldn't
her dead body still be on the ground since it wasn't buried?
Or do you have a limited amount of time to bury them? Then
do you have kill them again or bury them "alive". But then
Yemi's body was found. SO what happens when the undead see
their own dead physical body?
Just some questions for this theory.
G money said:
"One question that I have with this theory, which is a good one, is this...
So, when Sawyer picks up Claire from the rubble, wouldn't her dead body still be on the ground since it wasn't buried? Or do you have a limited amount of time to bury them? Then do you have kill them again or bury them "alive". But then Yemi's body was found. SO what happens when the undead see their own dead physical body? Just some questions for this theory.
No, the ACTUAL body is reanimated, not a duplicate, not a ghost or some sort of phantasm. Claire's body became undead. Yemi, according to the producers, was an apparition created by the Monster. I don't think we have enought canon from the series (yet) to explain why burial negates the Islands ability to cause someone to become undead.
If my theory has any merit, I think we will be closer to the truth after the next episode.
I think the writers will start to explain the undead plot arc, but they won't reveal that many of our favorite characters, who seem to be very much alive and in good health, are really undead, such as Jin, Locke, Rose (and maybe Bernard) and Sawyer. I feel that they will save these revelations for the very last of the season.
My explanation for seeing people once thought dead can be found in the book or movie Solaris. If you watch the movie I recommend the Tarkovsky film.
Another problem- the horse was catagorized as undead? How did the horse body ever get to the island? I'm having serious Occam's Razor fits believing we are dealing with zombies (real dead bodies that move), apparitions (ghosts with no bodies), dreams (that relay real information), AND illusions (created by a monster) seperately. Thats too wacky even for lost, something must be tying them all together (and I understand the writers broke it down sorta like that in a podcast, but i think they were making distinctions of a greater whole, not catagorizing per se).
Mark Buehner said:
"Another problem- the horse was catagorized as undead? How did the horse body ever get to the island? I'm having serious Occam's Razor fits believing we are dealing with zombies (real dead bodies that move), apparitions (ghosts with no bodies), dreams (that relay real information), AND illusions (created by a monster) seperately. Thats too wacky even for lost, something must be tying them all together (and I understand the writers broke it down sorta like that in a podcast, but i think they were making distinctions of a greater whole, not catagorizing per se)."
Since we have seen a polar bear transported OFF the Island, it is not impossible that the horse that Kate saw in Tallahassee, in the episode "What Kate Did," was the same horse transported TO the Island. And we also saw what happened to that polar bear, it was dead. If the horse arrive on the Island dead, perhaps the Island reamimated it, for some reason, so Kate could see it.
We've seen Ben transported off the Island, and although the process did not kill him, he did arrive in North Africa injured.
It may seem wacky, but I've never seen any real evidence that the producers or writers have moved this story along with red herrings. They have been hinting at these types of "appearences" for over a year.
Yeahh.... but what point could teleporting a horse to the island (killing it) and then bringing it back to life possibly have aside from freaking Kate out? _That_ would be a red herring imo.
All of these things seem so personalized... maybe we are approaching this from the wrong angle. The people experiencing these phenominon are experiencing them all differently, perhaps that is the point. One cause, various different manifestations for each recipient depending on them individually.
I mean otherwise, here is the problem i have- imagine the Island is a sentient being sitting around drinking beers with its other island buddies, "yeh, sometimes i freak em out by bringing the dead back to life, but sometimes i'll hit em with a straight up ghost, or maybe just me pretending to be a ghost, or maybe i'll be a ghost but only in their dreams. And sometimes i follow em home as a ghost, or send the ghost..."
That is just waaaay to hacky for me to beleive these excellent writers wrote. There is something at least semi-logical tying all this together, and my guess is that it is very personal to each of the people experiencing it. Something about their psyche or history- like they say one person would see heaven as a huge garden while somebody else sees it as an endless museum etc. Heaven is the same, its how it is perceived that is different. Not sure if that makes any sense.
Mark Buehner said:
"Yeahh.... but what point could teleporting a horse to the island (killing it) and then bringing it back to life possibly have aside from freaking Kate out? _That_ would be a red herring imo. All of these things seem so personalized... maybe we are approaching this from the wrong angle. The people experiencing these phenominon are experiencing them all differently, perhaps that is the point. One cause, various different manifestations for each recipient depending on them individually.I mean otherwise, here is the problem i have- imagine the Island is a sentient being sitting around drinking beers with its other island buddies, "yeh, sometimes i freak em out by bringing the dead back to life, but sometimes i'll hit em with a straight up ghost, or maybe just me pretending to be a ghost, or maybe i'll be a ghost but only in their dreams. And sometimes i follow em home as a ghost, or send the ghost..."
First, I'm only trying to relate my theory both with the questions from the users and possible answers as I scan back though episodes and statements by the producers.
All in all, anything I've posted on this thread above and beyond my theory is simply speculation on my part.
In my statements above, I have not said the Island is responsible for every type of apparition. Michael seeing Libby, Hurley seeing Dave, Locke seeing Boone and certain appearances by Walt has solely been in the mind of the character seeing the vision. The Smoke Monster is responsible for at least two sighting, the Medusa Spiders and Yemi. Maybe it's Jacob who decides who becomes undead? Maybe the Island can be equated with Jacob. Perhaps Ben holds the holy water? It's all a gray area, and has been for more than 3 years.
Other than my initial theory above, I have no canonical proof of some of my suppositions I have made. That's the fun part of expanding on theories, and as a new contributor to Docarzt, I hope my first blog entry has served it's purpose.
And I want to thank everyone for making my first thread a positive experience. If you have any ideas for future topics, theory or otherwise, please click on my website link on the first post and email me from there. I would enjoy your input.
Didn't another patient at Santa Rosa see Charlie? Remember how shocked Hurley was that the other guy could actually see him?
WLN said:
"I think the writers will start to explain the undead plot arc, but they won't reveal that many of our favorite characters, who seem to be very much alive and in good health, are really undead, such as Jin, Locke, Rose (and maybe Bernard) and Sawyer. I feel that they will save these revelations for the very last of the season."
I don't think Sawyer is undead either, based on Jack and Kate's conversation on 4x10 when Jack states that Sawyer "chose to stay". So if the undead can "choose" between staying or leaving.. why would Jin stay?
based on cabin fever, maybe the difference between
who is dead or undead depends if they are choosen.