I have three words for you: cut to white! Much like The Sopranos’ series finale polarized fans with its insidiously enigmatic cut to black, LOST has seemingly polarized fans with its brash cut to white. Some love it, some hate it. My take on it: brilliant! What better way to end the season that precedes the one with all of the answers then by cutting sharp and clean, and leaving a bleeding edge that gushes the red stuff? From a forward momentum perspective: Jacob revealed in the first five minutes, FTW! Statue revealed, FTW! John Locke really dead? NO! Rate and rant ahead.
So a few off the cuff thoughts for you: Did Jacob bring Locke back from the dead after John fell out of that window? I say yes. A lot of people were surprised that John survived that fall, maybe he didn’t. Furthermore, maybe this gives us a ticket to resurrect the real Locke next year. Locke vs. Locke, in the shadow of the statue? Whoa.
How about this new game-changer of a rivalry that was introduced? Seemingly omniscient game masters. Do we need a divergence from the Widmore/Linus squabble?
And how about the cut to white? Genius cliff hanger, or the sort of thing that just pisses you off royally? Tell us!
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305 Responses to “Rate And Rant! “The Incident” – Lost Season 5 Finale”
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Great episode. Really lame ending.
Right now the ending is a little annoying, but that’s just because we have so long to wait before we know what happens. I’ve got a feeling, though, that when all is said and done, it will feel just right.
Was the guitar case that Hurley had, Charlies? How is it that there are two Lockes? Was Jacobs buddy in the form of Locke?
yes, there arent, yes
“The Monster” has taken many forms- all dead people whose bodies are on the island. Echo’s brother, Christian, etc. Locke had to die, then be brought to the island in order for Jacob’s nemesis (the monster?) to take his form and use it to convince Ben to kill Jacob. Thus, finding the loophole in a seeming stipulation that the rival couldn’t kill Jacob himself.
…at least that’s how I interpreted things.
i’d say you got that right, my take exactly! and in my opinion, this finale was awesome, and the beginning to s06 is going to rock SO much
I can get behind that however I was watching the first season again today and (correct me if I’m wrong) but I thought Jack found his father’s coffin but it was empty. Therefore, Christian Shepard’s body ISN’T on the Island….
No, it just means his body wasn’t in the coffin anymore. Another mysterious body disappearance was Yemi, whose corpse was found by his brother in the beechcraft, but some weeks later was nowhere to be found. Someone or something moved it. But it was on the island. Same thing happened with Christian.
I belive the loophole to be John himself, the entity that has been controlling dead people to manipulate the living, finally lucked out and found someone who mattered, at least to the “Others.” The irony here being that John Locke a man who had been manipulated and coned his whole life, now is suddenly the ultimate con-man. And why? Because of course the real John Locke is dead. I’m sure everyone noticed the difference in John since returning to the island and the living, and now we know why.
Amazing episode! Probably my favourite of the series (surpassing my previous pick: ‘The Man Behind The Curtain’). Ending was sa-weeeeet, and to answer your question, real Locke is dead. The Locke that coaxed Ben into killing Jacob was really the smoke in Locke’s form. We’ve seen it take shapes many many other times. Jacob’s ‘buddy’ (the man with him on the beach in the first scene) is the smoke. Long live rivalry.
If I’m wrong, stone me!
Jimzip
Gotta agree with you that the “cut-to-white” rocked. We are left until next season with a “Schrodenger’s Cat” enigma: The island is both there and destroyed until we witness the truth.
Hence, why it was a lame ending.
just because it hurts your head dosent mean youve got to hate on it
dude, hold back on the haterade
haterade, is this a new anger drink?
I didn’t see any indication that the bomb going off wasn’t what had always happened. Some big “incident” happened at the Swan station, and that’s what we saw. Chang even had his arm destroyed just like we’ve always known happened.
It was very CLEARLY edited to show the energy pocket was breached by the drill PRIOR to Juliet detonating the bomb. Think for a minute: the INCIDENT is what caused Juliet to be drug into the hole by the chains she was entangled in – the electro-magnetic energy of the Swan site.
The donation of the bomb occurs immediately AFTER the incident. I am assuming the combination of the explosion and the release of the electro-magnetic energy cause something similar to turning the donkey-wheel in that it will transport the Losties to the present, maybe.
Anyway, I think the INCIDENT and the detonation of the BOMB are independent of one another in the WHH debate, and we cannot say one way or another if the BOMB has always gone off or is indeed a new event that will change the past/present/future.
Chris in Fort Worth
Well, we’ve been led to believe that the release of the energy was what caused the Swan to be built. So, if as you say (and I feel the same) the energy had been released before the bomb had been detonated, I don’t see how the explosion could affect the timeline. The incident that caused the Swan to be built happened regardless of Jughead’s detonation.
I’m thinking that the original purpose of the Swan was to harness the energy of the pocket of energy. I believe that the bomb DID detonate, partially neutralizing that energy, and changing the purpose of the swan as a result. That purpose:pressure release valve. Job of pushing the button to relieve said pressure given to: Radzinsky, the douche who cockily(is that a word?)thought he could control something he could not possibly understand.
P.S.: Good riddance Phil.
True, but keep in mind we don’t know what the fallout will be from the bomb. It still has the potential to eliminate the need for the Swan by potentially negating the release of the energy with the blast.
Chris in Fort Worth
*power of the pocket of energy* oops
I am SO glad that I am not the only person calling Radzinski a douche. I’m not-so-secretly happy he ends up a stain on the ceiling of the Swan…
The Incident Created Smokey!:
The pieces are all there. While Smokey has a natural form, the mechanical nature was defined by the Incident! We’ve seen it drag people into holes, use a chain to do that dragging cut off arms, act like a crane, and make a warble noise. The Monster was trapped in the spot of the future Swan by someone(perhaps the Egyptians or whoever built the wheel), and it was freed by the bomb (and in asense became one with it, thus making Locke’s orignal recollection of the Monster as ‘beatiful’ but frighteningly logical when you consider his constant dichtomatic thinking – hunter/farming, MOScience/MOFaith- Locke sees the capacity of the Monster as a weapon and sees the world in black and white, a sort of Rorshach with Adrian Veidt’s agenda). Now the Monster honor’s its freedom by performing proxy events just as the Island does.
Second, I think I like the theory that 815 wasnt supposed to crash but certain people on it were meant to come to the Island at 2007 via 316. The best evidence of this is the Runway, which was too behind schedule to be for the 815′s. Jacob or the Man (Im calling him Moses, not Esau, because Moses lead the chosen people out of Egypt – a cyclical land when relating to the Nile – which seems to be this man’s agenda) plucked the people needed to reset the loop off the plane (meaning Sun likely wouldn’t come on 316 in the original plan of Jacob’s).
might it be fair to suggest that smokey and esau- he’s definitely called esau
– are in league together? smokey, in the form of alex, told ben to obey esau-locke, thereby ensuring he did in fact kill jacob.
moreover, jacob lives in the statue of dog-man (presumably anubis); there was a hieroglyph in the temple, of smokey vs anubis. so perhaps while jacob was making a rug in his statue, esau was painting his plotted battle against jacob, each of which are being represented by their residences.
finally, did anyone think the hut that bernard and rose live in looked strangely similar to jacob’s hut? perhaps that painting of the dog is in fact vincent, as painted by one of the two losties…? clutching at straws here…
I’ll take it one step further and say that esau (I assume he’s the guy who wanted to kill Jacob) is in someway or another Smokey (not just controls it). That’s why Fake Locke wandered off right before Smokey appeard to Ben and let him live.
Yes, I’m pretty sure the huts are one in the same, but it really wasn’t Jacob’s hut. . . that was a lie told by its true resident, Esau.
My guess is that Jacob bound his nemesis to the cabin. Hurley saw two people inside… Jacob and ‘Esau’ (though I highly doubt that will be his name in-show. I don’t believe either character is literally their biblical counterpart. Exiled gods, perhaps…)
The cut to white was brillant. ill be in the forums tomorrow after my second viewing….ill have tons to share!
I think a lot of people are missing the point of the cut to white – it is the exact opposite of how Lost normally ends
Loved the cut-to-white. I don’t see how its any different than other season finales that ended in cliffhangers.
The white LOST logo was so weird to see compared to the black one….so crazy!
Also can’t wait for the latin translations!
No words…no words…They should have sent a poet…they should have sent a poet…
I never thought I’d use the “best episode ever” button. But I just did.
And me. And 85 other voters… so far.
totaly…who knew it could happen
First time to use it as well…
Chris in Fort Worth
Same here. 181 by the time I got here. I LOVED this one!
absolutely brilliant.
272 for Best Episode Ever… and still counting.
I’m pretty sure I used it for the Ben-centric episode this season.
I don’t have words. This has been the Lost episode that has impressed me the most. The most intense episode I recall. Apart from minor quips about some decisions (I think Rose and Bernard’s scene was really lame) everything else was really intense and so… disturbing.
Some things I already mentioned in the screencaps thread but here will be put to a better use, since here is where all the debate is going to unravel:
1. Poster Shaun said he thinks Jacob’s enemy (the guy looking for a loophole) was also the guy in the cabin that we all thought was Jacob. I think it’s a good call. Yemi… or Christian Shepherd… was never Jacob. It was Jacob’s enemy. When Christian Shepherd said he could talk for Jacob, it was the Enemy, lying. And the Enemy has something to do with the monster, if not the Monster itself.
But the problem is that, the different parts don’t seem to be able to communicate. For example, the Enemy (or maybe it was the Monster) took the form of yet another dead person whose corpse was in the island… Alex. But the new Locke (the Lockeganger) didn’t know what Ghost Alex said to Ben. It’s not omniscient. It keeps the memories of the dead person (”Say hello to my son!”, “That’s the man who killed me.”) but after that’s done, its abilities are limited.
And he can’t kill Jacob. He needs someone else to do it for him.
Oh, and I hate him. But that’s another thing.
2. ErasedSlate noticed how, in every flashback, Jacob TOUCHED each and everyone of the people he visited, except Ilana. Great thing to notice. Also, he didn’t visit Juliet. Maybe she wasn’t as special as James, Hurley, Jin, Sun, Kate, John and Jack. He visited and touched all of them, because they were all special. Because he needed to fix them. He needed to send them in the right track.
Maybe Juliet never strayed from the right track.
And when he said “What about you?” to Ben, I felt really sad. Because Ben got fooled into making the most terrible mistake, and he did that out of spite, because he felt ignored by Jacob. And maybe that’s exactly what it was… “What about you?” = You’re not important, I don’t care about you.
OORRRR…… “What about you? There’s nothing wrong with you, Ben.”
Poor Ben. Poor Jacob. He was, after one the best guy in the show. I hope he’s not gone. Please.
3. Finally, the Statue… we know who it represents.
It is SOBEK, the egyptian crocodile god. A very powerful being, strong and sometimes merciless, but also held for a long time as one of the mythological creators of the world.
Here’s a GREAT part from Wikipedia… Read it:
“Sobek’s ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part.”
Doesn’t it sound like JACOB?
Also interesting:
“n this way, he was seen as a more primal god, eventually becoming regarded as an avatar of the primal god Amun, who at that time was considered the chief god. When his identity finally merged, Amun had become merged himself with Ra to become Amun-Ra, so Sobek, as an avatar of Amun-Ra, was known as Sobek-Ra.”
Who could see this coming?
All I can say now is…. LOST IS THE BEST SHOW ON THE HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE.
One thing about the touching though, Jacob touched Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Jin and Sun before the crash of 815. He touched Sayid and Hurley after the O6 got back to the “real” world. Not sure if this is of any significance but it did strike me as odd as it looks like if nothing changes it might be curtins for our good friend Sayid. Saying that, I am not sure about Hurley either. Not sure if there is a connection to this or if I am reaching, but something to note.
Not sure about the touching making a difference with Sayid and Hurley, but the fact that he came to them AFTER the O6′s return has to be significant. Don’t you think? I’m not sure what, but I did wonder why he visited Kate and Sawyer as kids, yet Sayid and Hurley as adults and after their (first) visit to the island. Locke as an adult as well, but still before O-815.
And where does Richard fit into all of this?
I think that Jacob touched their lives at a low point. Although Hurley and Sayid had many low points but he was there during hard times. I thought for sure that we would see him with Juliet during her hard time…but we didn’t. I know why they showed that flashback, but all the others were about Jacob touching their lives.
I like your thinking! That works for me.
I’m guessing most people here read Doc Jensen’s stuff over at ew.com, but I should mention that I just watched the new, 4-part Totally Lost video he did (I didn’t get to watch it yesterday) which was an interview with Darlton. Lindelof’s tease for last night described as a very “touchy” episode.
With that in mind, I think it’s safe to say that Jacob’s touching (almost) everyone he came into contact with is of major importance.
Sun and Jin’s wedding wasn’t a low point(at least I hope not).
However..Jacob’s litte speech about how important their love is, may be important to the low points their marriage will have.
I think the reasoning for Juliet’s flashback was when she remarked as a little girl “I can’t understand how two people can love eachother but can’t stay together”. It was perhaps foreshadowing to her and Sawyer.
But we still didn’t see the front of the statue!
No, but we saw the head which pretty clearly to me was a Crocodile head (some still think it was a hippo, though)
Agreed… but I still feel that we haven’t seen its face for a reason (unless the writers are just joshing with us).
It CLEARLY had the teeth of a crocodile.
And as for not seeing it from the front… COME ON. The only thing they can do now is show that it has HALF the face of a crocodile and half the face of someone else, and how lame would that be.
It’s a crocodile, and it is Sobek… deal with it. I happen to think it is great and the relevance to what we’ve seen throughout 5 seasons is far greater than Twaret or Anubis or any of the other Egyptian gods posters wanna pull outta their arses.
Plus, I believe that if Jacob is implied to BE Sobek, or an entity that predated Sobek, that the Egyptians were inspired to worship, then I think one could make an interesting case that Richard is Amun. Although, Jacob MAKING Richard the way he is seems to preclude this possibility…. Just a thought…
I am still on the Ricardus was on the Black Rock… boat (npi) for now…
“1. Poster Shaun said he thinks Jacob’s enemy (the guy looking for a loophole) was also the guy in the cabin that we all thought was Jacob. I think it’s a good call. Yemi… or Christian Shepherd… was never Jacob. It was Jacob’s enemy. When Christian Shepherd said he could talk for Jacob, it was the Enemy, lying. And the Enemy has something to do with the monster, if not the Monster itself.”
Why thanks, Michel! I’m not sure if what I posted last night totally made sense or not (it was late, I was sleepy, and I’m sure I made typos) but that was the first thing I thought when we saw that Jacob had an enemy and that someone had escaped the circle of ash.
But… You make a good point about the monster (if, in fact, the enemy/Esau is also the monster) apparently having limited knowledge about what he/it has done before. “NotLocke” honestly seemed surprised about “Alex’s” threat to Ben. That just doesn’t seem likely, does it?
Good point about Jacob and the touching of others… I noticed it, but didn’t really read much into it at the time. Not touching Ilana is interesting. A sign that she’s not going to last?
Great call about Sobek… You might be on to something there. It does sound like Jacob. Now that we’ve seen him, I hope Jacob isn’t merely “one and done” on the show. There’s still a million questions about him. I also have to say that, having now seen him, he’s NOT what I expected at all but that doesn’t make it a bad thing. Not by a longshot. I was fascinated by the character, and I hope we’ll see more of him.
think your right about the jacob imposter although ilana, think her name is, thaught she said, he doesn’t live there any more so he did at one point.
thaught it was interesting when jacob asked anyone to do something he empisised that the person had a choice. hurley, illana, ben.
where previously everything we thaught to do with jacob was destiney.
so does this mean what happened happened or not. almost catholic or christian in its contrast in the question between free will and fate.
They never said Jacob isn’t there anymore. It seems as though they were paying a visit to Esau. They wanted to show him Locke’s body so he knew that they knew…
““NotLocke” honestly seemed surprised about “Alex’s” threat to Ben. That just doesn’t seem likely, does it?”
But this could be explained away by supposing that real Locke’s reaction to Ben’s revelation would’ve been surprise, so this was all part of the loophole guy’s con.
and if eassu is all the dead people did loche disapear when christian was talking to sun and frank.
the question now is are the 06 being manipulated and doing eassu bidding by seting of the nuke or jacobs bidding or there own, free will and all that. if ocsianic 815 dosn’t crash can eassu manipulate everything there by killing jacob or does it make a difference.
and is eassu all the dead people even the ones hurley sees or as jacob says, is this a blessing for hurley and where to prsume that the people hurley sees are genuine.
liked this episode it does change things, perspective any way. at what point does eassu start manipulateing people, we know mr echo was on jacobs lists, or a list and the smoke monster killed him, thats the only contrast that springs to mind for me at the moment or was everything all the flash backs the personal triumps on and of the island before and after the crash done for good or bad out come or is it even bad to kill jacob, maybe he has it comeing to him
Crocodile god? Are you kidding me? Its an exact replica of Taweret. …haha…Crocodile God??? I think Darlton might have even said this in a recent podcast.
haha… yeah except hippos don’t EXACTly have teeth that extend all the way to the point of their snouts… actually they don’t EXACTly have pointy snouts at all…
haha
I am fairly new to this show-but I remember reading on this site about the dog being referred to as being Jacob(or possibly the smoke monster) for some reason I can’t remember. It was on the very 1st show. The dog is responsible for Kate, Sawyer, and Juliet finding out where Jack was in order to stop Jack, via the black and white couple(Bernard and Rose?)Anyway, at 1st the three are gung-ho to stop Jack, and then Juliet and Kate change their minds for some unknown reason.
Call me lame but was I the only one who was thrilled to see Rose again??? Haha, I’m not sure why…but it just bothered me so much when they left. Glad to know they are ok…and that the rest are all dead I guess ha ha.
I feel like that “Loophole” was that the fake “Locke” was able to have the leader, Ben, kill Jacob. Locke lied to Ben by saying he was the leader or whatever so that he could get him to kill him. Why he wanted him dead…I have no idea. Something to do with the beginning though when Jacob was saying the people always bring their own destruction to the island or something.
I was also pretty sad when Juillet died, oh wait, just fall down a huge narrow pipe into a rock bottom and live…but it was a great scene with her to finally see her have some real emotion!
2010 will never be here soon enough…
You’re not lame. I was SOO excited to see Vincent. I love that dog.
I geeked out like only a LOST fan could when that dog ran up to them on the beach. My roomate and I looked at eachother and both yelled “VINCENT” at the top of our lungs and high fives ensued.
Yeah! I knew I wasn’t alone! It’s like when I watched the episode when Jin floated up to the Rousseau’s team and at home, alone I yelled “JIN!!!” I did the same thing for Vincent
(and yes, it was good to see Rose and Bernard again)
Reading the Lostpedia article, anyone find it significant Jacob was gutting a RED HERRING while the Black Rock went cruising by? Not so subtle way of telling us that neither Jacob, Richard, or anyone has any relation to the ship?
Well, it could be Richard…he wasn’t in the beginning and I don’t recall them saying anything about him. I could see him as a pirate…he already has the dark eyes ha ha. I just want to know what their little conversation was about and why that dude hates Jacob so much.
Well, if we go back to Jacob’s name, it could be a nod to the Story of Jacob and Esau. That would probably make that angry dude Esau, or at least a parallel to him.
This is a very interesting bit from Wikipedia about the two brothers:
“Rebecca (Jacob and Esau’s mother) was extremely uncomfortable during her double pregnancy and went to inquire of God why she was suffering so. The Midrash says that whenever she would pass a house of Torah study, Jacob would struggle to come out; whenever she would pass a house of idolatry, Esau would agitate to come out.
She received the prophecy that twins were fighting in her womb and would continue to fight all their lives, and after they became two separate nations.
The prophecy also said that the older would serve the younger; its statement “one people will be stronger than the other” has been taken to mean that the two nations would never gain power simultaneously: when one fell, the other would rise, and vice versa.”
By most accounts, Jacob was the evil one of the two.
I suspect, and we’ve had numerous clues that Jacob is/was not particularly benevolent nor is his “evil nameless twin” played by Titus Welliver, particularly bad. We have zero frame of reference for these two other than they have a long-standing feud of some kind and Jacob’s not-twin was somehow in a one-down position seemingly due to something Jacob did. I believe Richard was in a one-down position as it related to Jacob as well, as were any humans on the Island to who answered to Jacob. What I’m implying is maybe Ben actually killed the really bad guy when he killed Jacob.
Has anyone read “The Bad Twin”? by Gary Troup, released during or after Season 1. And if so, does it have any relevance to Jacob/Esau?
And am I crazy (or did I see wrong), but in this episode was the foot on the beach a right foot, where it had previously appeared to be a left foot?
You’re not crazy, neither wrong. They got it wrong this episode.
One foot in front of the other…
I did not notice that…Do we think that was a mistake, or an example of a change to history? Ben tells Sun that the statue was already broken when he got to the island, but Sun’s continued questioning and Ben’s response seems to indicate that he (big shock) was lying about that. So the statue was probably whole when he first arrived, got demolished, but the circumstances have changed a bit?
Or, y’know, maybe it *was* just a mistake. LOL.
No, it’s just a tricky perspective; but they got it right. Look at the screencap topic here: http://www.docarzt.com/lost/lost-news/lost-screencaps-fade-to-white-here-are-the-caps/
Then look at the position of the feet in the picture of the whole statue (especially look at how much flat space on the platform is in front of the right foot). Then look near the bottom of the page where the daytime photo is of the lone foot, and see that there’s a lot more empty space in front of the foot on the platform (because the left foot is further over), and you can tell it’s really the left foot, as it should be. But I’ll admit, it was hard to tell at that very low perspective.
I don’t think that was a herring. They’re a little narrower and bright red.
If we could rate the two hours separately, the first hour would get a perfect score while the second would be below average. Jack and Juliet’s motivations are ridiculous, and the second half dragged a bit. But it was still a great episode overall for all the mythology revealed.
My opinion exactly. A character like Ben has motivations that have been developed over seasons and Juliet gets a 30 second flashback to explain hers. Lame. And Jack is willing to risk everyone’s death for Kate, who is beside him, begging him not to. If he actually loves her with the kind of intensity that would motivate him to detonate a nuke, wouldn’t he alter himself.
I loved the episode, but I had to score it less than perfect simply because of that interminable 10 minute stretch of the Jack-Sayer-Juliet-Kate love quadrangle rearing it’s ugly head YET again. AARGH! Enough already! Let’s take a break to “talk about it” while Sayid’s dying in the van (Nice one Doc… Didn’t even bother to mention it to Sawyer?). Whine about Kate (Dude, she’s NOT worth it), get into a fist fight (Sawyer kicking Jack in the groin… Totally dirty pool), yadda yadda. Then Juliet and Kate both change their minds about everything with what seemed to be little motivation. Completely NOT believable.
I still don’t see Kate willingly letting things happen so that she, potentially, goes back to prison, but then she hasn’t made any sense to me for at least two seasons now. One minute she loves Jack, then she doesn’t, then does again. Except for when she loves Sawyer. Darlton appears to have killed off a great character in Juliet (plus, she’s way hot) but that annyoing twit Kate survives? Ugh… There had better be a DAMNED good reason for keeping her around next season.
Anyhow, if Juliet is indeed dead (sniff) I hope all the “shipper” stuff pretty much dies with it. Get on with what’s important on the show, Darlton! All the mythology stuff last night was awesome, so let’s flesh that out in season six.
interesting (and not at all surprising) that Damon was listed first for the 1st part writing and Carlton was listed first for the 2nd parts. I’ve long suspected that Carlton is responsible for much that is wrong with the Lost universe, including the various love quadrangles…. He has always seemed like a studio plant to me, to keep the show commercial and not let it veer off to wildly into the territory some of us have longed to explore…
Who the hell are the 2 people (out of 200 at this point) that voted this episode worst ever?! Are you hitting that button just to hit it? I’m not questioning that people may have enjoyed it to different degrees, but really?! Why are you still watching this show?ugh!
I was thinking that too! Probably just doing it because…of course there will be parts we all think were not as good, but this was just about as good as it gets! My heart was beating the whole time ha ha
Hey man, they preferred Stranger in a Strange Land to this episode. Nothing really to say.
I agree with Hexonxonx above. I would give the first hour a 42 (hell I’d give the first 5 minutes a 108), but I’d have to go with 23 for the second hour.
I ask myself that same question almost weekly.
Like others, I found that this episode’s opener was top quality, really pushed the story and had a lot to reveal.
The rest of it, however … was awful. Really terrible instances of covering up old mistakes with new ones, and absolutely ridiculous character motivation (seriously, Juliet’s motivation was … what, again?) all culminating in a rather anti-climatic final scene, which is kind of a blessing really. At least this years hiatus won’t be so painful, I’ll happily wait 9 months for the new season. Gives me time to re-watch my ‘The Wire’ DVD’s for some real entertainment
ugh!
Stop watching the show
lol admittedly i came on this site as soon as the episode finished and in my frustration with the RIDICULOUS cliffhanger nearly hit the worst episode ever- the description does say “i wish it never happened”, and quite frankly, i didnt want juliet to die, and sayid looks like he could well be heading that way too
but then i manned up and hit best episode ever, cos it is.
I think they’ve still left themselves some wiggle room on Juliet. Desmond was once blown to smithereens in the heart of the swan station
Yeah, I agree… We may not have seen the last of her (hope not!). I knew Sayid would be a red herring though. I thought he was a goner going into the episode, as his story would seem to have run its course, but the longer he held on the more thought “Huh, it must be Juliet.” Juliet’s remark to Bernard about “Maybe another time” also sounding like foreshadowing to her demise as well.
But anyhow, I have to disagree with Al about the cliffhanger… I mean for the next 8 months or so we’re ALL gonna be talking about how it ended and what we think happened. Isn’t that what a good cliffhanger is supposed to do? I don’t think any one of us has a definite idea of where the show heads from here. We might have ideas (such as the blast bringing the losties back to 2007), but nothing definite.
Juliet will become the smoke monster after the explosion. The sounds surrounding her death are the sounds the monster makes, the chain that drug her down just like the monster did Locke, and the fact that the monster has never been seen before that time period all give me the suspicion that she dies and “Anti-jacob” controls her just like all the other dead people. Maybe the islands energy that is released inhabits her and the explosion giving us the smoke monster we know and love.
Which means, really, that the guys on this forum should be ecstatic, because it means next season is going to open with a naked Juliet running through the jungle. If Desmond is any example- but then again, Desmond is “special”. She had two great moments- slamming that guys head on the table and telling Sawyer to man up on the submarine, and smashing the bomb. Between that her mood swings were enough to give me whip lash.
Even though it was one of the most intense episodes…I hit that button.
Because, the only positive thing that happened in it was Rose and Bernard finding peace.
Because, all this Kate jealously crap is astoundingly hard to take.
Because, I pressed it but I didn’t really mean it…it was a rash decision but it happened.
Well, whatever happened happened.
I liked seeing Rose and Bernard finding their peace, but I wonder if that’s gonna last. Then again, that might be the end of their arc. Until we find their skeletons in the cave again, that is.
One amazing thing in all of this, that I don’t think anyone’s mentioned yet, Desmond was nowhere to be found. I think a lot of us were expecting him to appear, and being a big game-changer, last night. Makes me wonder if his recent real-world troubles are going to have an impact on his future on the show.
Fantastic. Couldn’t have been better.
I definitely think Jacob resurrected Locke after he was pushed out of the window and that will tie in with Ben’s ‘healing’ after being shot…Jacob has the power to grant life, or ‘create’ life as the personification of the Egyptian god Sobek. From wikipedia re: Sobek – “in some Egyptian creation myths, it was Sobek who first came out of the waters of chaos to create the world.”
regarding Claire, I fear she is indeed dead and, along with Christian and Locke, simply used by Smokey/man in black/evil incarnate as a vessel with which to interact with people.
I like the idea of time being ‘reset’ as it relates to Jacob’s death and the need to bring balance to the battle between good and evil. It gets shaky though when I think about the Losties themselves…I get the feeling Season 6 will mirror Season 1 in many ways, but with our Losties retaining the knowledge of what has transpired thus far. What does that mean? Heck if I know.
Sawyer’s beat down of Jack was single handedly the best fight scene this series has provided, and there have been many good ones. Sawyer’s rage at Jack’s self serving attitude was fantastic. Loved it more than his genuine display of despair when Juliet fell.
Even though the signs point to Jacob empodying the notion of Good, his subtle manipulations in the lives of the Losties seems at odds with the idea of free will. It’s a bit creepy, and I for one feel Ben has a point, even if the seeds of that idea were planted by the evil-dead Locke/bad guy dude. Jacob’s response to Ben’s “what about me?” query was dripping with indifference, “what about you?” – gave me a bad vibe.
Great, great stuff and so well done. The white screen was terrific. LOST is such an adventure, I love this show.
“everything that rises must converge” check out the wiki page on the dude whose philosophy is referenced by the title of the book Jacob was reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin
Chris in Fort Worth
chris my fellow texan…. you always have some of the most interesting points and yet always find a way to come up with the most errant observations… Sawyer beat down Jack? Jack beat the hell outta him [put him down twice] and sawyer had to resort to the “bitch move” of kicking an unsuspecting jack in the nuts [who thought two put downs was enuff] Jack could have easily mopped up the floor w/ him either of the two times he put him down but was trying to leave well enuff alone. Sawyer has always got his ass kicked except for one fight that I can remember [and it sure aint this one]
I think that’s called a backhanded compliment. ; )
Yes, Sawyer did resort to the bitch move. To clarify, my intention was to describe the range of emotion Sawyer displayed in the scene and the realization he still possesses the anger/rage that has motivated him through the series.
In any case, the showdown between Jack and Sawyer and the subsequent shot of the two staring each other down as Jack made his way to the swan site were incredible.
Chris in Fort Worth
agreed! I also thought he did a great job w/ the “juliet falling” scene.
“Sawyer’s beat down of Jack was single handedly the best fight scene this series has provided, and there have been many good ones. Sawyer’s rage at Jack’s self serving attitude was fantastic. Loved it more than his genuine display of despair when Juliet fell.”
Huh. I thought, after Sawyer attacked Jack and having the element of surprise on his side, Jack came back and was kicking Sayer’s ass pretty handily, until Sawyer played dirty pool and kicked Jack in the groin. After that slimy move, Jack didn’t stand a chance and Sawyer covered his bets slamming Jack in the head with a log or heavy branch of some kind.
I dunno… After really coming to respect Sawyer in the way he took responsibility for everyone in season four, and then did much the same thing throughout season five, I’ve started losing respect for him again.
He was willing to get on the sub and leave his friends behind (like Hurley, I really wanted him to have a plan). I realize he had a good thing going with Juliet, but he had to know it wouldn’t last (Um, The Purge anyone?). Then his violently lashing out Jack was just crappy too.
But yeah, Sawyer’s anguish while trying, in vain, to save Juliet was truly heartbreaking. Some of the best work that both Josh and Elizabeth have done.
Just want to prop up my own thoughts by sharing this from Doc Jensen’s recap over at EW:
“Sawyer’s exasperation with Jack was mine, and the beat down he administered offered some catharsis. Seriously: I hope he beat some sense into him.”
So, I feel better now that I know I am clearly as brilliantly insightful as the Doc ; )
Chris in Fort Worth
p.s. you guys are right though, it was an even fight until Sawyer crushed Jack’s nuts.
Regarding Jacob’s words to Ben: If a Christian were to follow Satan, even if deceived, wouldn’t God turn a blind eye to that person? Therefore, his line of “What about you?” fits perfect.
I don’t want to turn this into a faith battle, but do you really think that God turns a blind eye on Christians who fall away?
” If a Christian were to follow Satan, even if deceived, wouldn’t God turn a blind eye to that person?”
Really? I’ve always been led to believe that a Christian God is a compassionate, forgiving God. Of course, the writer’s are in control of how we will ultimately understand Jacob. If they do intend Jacob to be the ‘good’ side of the equation, then perhaps their understanding of God is more in line with a dispassionate, indifferent deity.
Interesting point DarthBubba.
Chris in Fort Worth
Old Testament God doesn’t forgive, he destroys. . .now his kiddo from the New Testament. . .that’s a compassionate dude if there ever was one. I’m just saying if one were to follow Satan, even unknowingly, without asking for forgiveness, they’d be damned. That’s what Baptist church taught me. . . of course I no longer go there, but. . .
Good point…the ole’ eye for an eye God we all know and love from the old testament.
I’m still shaking and it ended 11 minutes ago. It maybe dragged on a bit, but I found this episode incredible. The cut to white had me mesmerized, and I can’t wait until 2010.
Another thing that came into my head. Now, I haven’t seen this episode in a while, but the one where Jack and Kate find the two bodies in that cave. I’m almost pretty sure that is Rose and Bernard now. If they just go off to live alone, something will happen and they will die together in the cave or someone finds them and puts them there so 30 years later, Jack finds them….
I agree.
Well, they know that there is a bomb, so they very easily could have decided to wait it out in the cave to see what occurs.The underground blast could have affected them in the cave since that would have been a release spot for the energy.
Wow! Great observation!
I agree that the anti-Jacob is the ghost we have been seeing throughout the show (e.g. Christian, potentially Mr. Eko’s brother etc.) – apparently he can inhabit dead bodies of people on the island.
It blows my mind that he had John die and his body brought back all as part of a plot to get to Jacob – how awesome is that!?! Since he is only able to mimic the dead he has John sacrifice himself, and gets Richard to tell him to do it (because Richard thinks he’s Locke).
Then as Christian the anti-Jacob pushes John the last mile, but does’t help him directly since that would be breaking the ‘rules’. Then after usurping John’s identity and leadership of the Other’s once the body returns to the island – he manipulates the best manipulator in the world to actually do the deed.
Loophole indeed. This show is so good I can’t stand it sometimes.
Nice summation. Love this: “Then after usurping John’s identity and leadership of the Other’s once the body returns to the island – he manipulates the best manipulator in the world to actually do the deed.”
How weak does Ben appear now? Literally, a ‘tool’.
Chris in Fort Worth
very nice summation indeed! awesome points I handt even considered.
Yes, Shieldwolf. I appreciate how you remembered that Fake-Locke instructed Richard to tell real Locke he had to die, because otherwise, Richard wouldn’t have known to say that, and Real-Locke wouldn’t have gone back thinking that. All part of Fake-Locke/Anti-Jacob’s heinous and intricate plot. Bwa-hahahahah!
yes, and then christian reinforces the point right before Locke leaves! wow…
Dude, you are the master.
oh god yes! amazing, if they knew this from the start as they say, bravo! great point!
So I guess we know why Jack “isn’t supposed to raise him” and why Kate shouldn’t “dare bring him back”. The “him” in those warnings (the first given to jack by Hurley through Charlie and the second delivered to Kate by Ghost/Dream Claire) was always Locke. I remember in a podcast Darlton talking about the possibility of the “him” in those warnings being someone other than Aaron but I guess I figured if they found it a topic/theory suitable to bring up then it wasn’t something totally spoilery. In retrospect that was VERY spoilery…only they knew we didn’t have the pieces to put the puzzle together just yet. Just a great episode and a truly stellar note to end the season on.
Which means that some people can still communicate with the dead. Maybe some work for Jacob, and some work for his enemy.
For example, when Jack can see his father in the hospital, after they returned from the island, his father is dressed in the clothing he had when buried, suit and white tennis shoes.
But then, we also see another version of Christian Shepherd… the ones that shows up to Locke, Michael, Sun and Lapidus, and the one who can carry Aaron… that’s the bad one, and possibly the one controlled by Esau (I’ll call Jacob’s enemy that way from now on).
We also have two different Claires. Claire one presents herself to Kate in a dream, in Los Angeles, and she seems her usual self… nervous and protective as always. And then we have the other Claire, the Claire that spoke to John inside the cabin… and that one didn’t behave like Claire at all.
And we have Yemi… the Yemi that the little australian girl saw after she ‘almost died’, and the Yemi that was shown in dreams to Eko… without dust or burn stains or blood. And there’s the other Yemi, the more corporeal one who said “What makes you think I’m your brother?” to Eko.
All the pieces fall in place now.
Ohhh that’s good. You know what’s so funny is that my mother, not always the first person to “get” something, has maintained for two years now that when we last saw Claire in the Cabin she was acting “not herself”. This theory and the existence of a being (that’s not the smoke monster) that can take the form, but not the body, of the dead certainly lends itself to the notion that Claire really is gone.
I wonder how much of the Island’s manifestations have been the Island and how many of them have been Esau trying desperately to find a way to kill Jacob.
So, what does that say about Esau, disguised as Christian, when he leads Claire into the jungle? I’m wondering if Esau has to have a access to a body…. then perhaps that is why people on the Island (Dharma) were in emphatic about making sure their dead were buried deep enough in the earth. When Christian took Claire into the jungle, was it to ensure that she wouldn’t be buried?
Great show!
another great point! jacob must have told richard to tell them to bury the bodies deep!
How can Jacob be “killed” so easily? Is he not supernatural? Locke was a “loophole”?! Julia blew it up!
TOQ is awesome, hope there is more “John Locke” screentime next year.
Sawyer
“Hell, this don’t look like LAX…”
how pissed is sawyer gonna be with jack now? if he hadnt done the whole bomb thing, juliet would never have fallen down the hole- or at least that’s what sawyer’s logic would be telling him.
perhaps this loophole business, combined with the nuke, has really changed the course of “time”- though i very much doubt anyone’s going to LAX
TOQ is awesome. was watching tombstone again the other day [first time in a couple years] and realized he plays the mayor. one of my fav movies has TOQ in it!
Im sure the disciples of the Lord Jesus felt the same way. As they believed him to indeed be the son of God and in fact God in human form. To see him be “led as a sheep to slaughter” and to be crucified and buried w/o the slightest resistance. “How can God be killed so easily” surely ran thru thier mind. As we now know it was part of a master plan itself. Since his “death” brought about the utter destruction of his enemy. i.e. “Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory” [1 cor 2 7-8] Perhaps our Jacob is not so easily killed but in fact has a master plan of his own. He OBVIOUSLY anticipated “Esau” and bens arrival and had in fact prepared beforehand. i.e. Illiana and crew. Perhaps he has a resurrection surprise in store for them as well.
So i am kinda guessing that those who were touched by Jacob (Jack, Kate ect) are going to be the ones who save us all from whatever is ‘coming’.
For some reason this is reminding me of the mummy and that some kind of army of the underworld is going to spread throughout the island
definatly my fav lost finale and the ending didnt suck…was the cliffhanger of all cliffhangers!
This episode (like all of the season finales) had a GREAT combination of character stories and mythology.
Eight months never seemed so far away!
There are two sides, it’s a game of light versus dark. Funny how we saw our first white LOST ending just moments after Jacob dies. Destiny Found. The last words he spoke was, “They’re coming.” Do the 77 folk go back to 07 instead of the plane landing in LA??? Hawking was the first to speak of coarse correcting, so maybe the plane always crashes and the 77 people experience their last flash. BTW, Richard was NO WHERE to watch all of Sun’s friends die. Don’t even know how I could wrap my head around the 2 Locke’s.
In a interview with team Darlton… They said that they wanted their season of time travel and it would be over with the end of 5… They had to practice writing/producing time travel with Lost so they could get it right for Star Trek
Huh. I thought the handling of time travel in the Trek movie was a total mess, and actually quite different from Trek’s handled it in the past. I know this isn’t supposed to be “your father’s Star Trek,” but allowing the creation of an alternate timeline that wipes everything I knew about Trek (and its spinoff shows) is exactly the opposite of what they used to do. Spock helped save Earth in both “City on the Edge of Forever” and in ST IV. Now, Vulcan is destoryed and Spock’s mom dies? No one finds a way to fix it? Likewise, the (lame) villain Nero (Khan-lite) goes back in time for revenge instead of trying to save Romulus? Whatever.
Oh, and I hate Chris Pine as Kirk… A snot-nosed punk who made Shia LeBeouf in last year’s Indy Jones movie look like a great leader. Totally one-note, and just obnoxious. SOrry, but I’m not interested in “Dawson’s Trek”.
Sorry… back to talking LOST now.
Wow. You hated Chris Pine? I wasn’t sure about him at first, but by the end he totally had me. Almost sounds like you haven’t seen the movie. I really hate folks coming on the boards and bashing something they haven’t even seen, just to bash it.
Go vacuum.
Don’t mind Shaun’s opinion on Trek. Like most of teh fanboys trashing it, he hasn’t seen it. If he had, he’d know that Nero didn’t go back in time for revenge, he got pulled back in time by accident. He didn’t even know where he was when he came out. THat’s why he asked Capt. Robau about the stardate. Don’t let one guy bug you. The movie was excellent.
I have one thing to ask…
WHAT THE FUCK DID RICHARD SAY!!!!!
And on a finale note….
HOLY FUCKING FUCK! :O Mouth still on floor!
The question was posed by Ilana what lies in the shadow of the statue? Richard’s answer was “He who will protect us all.”
Richard followed everything Locke said because Locke visited him in time jumps telling him that he(locke) is their leader… Hence why Richard visits Locke and says during the show; “I visited him off the Island and he didn’t seem special”.
Lockes destiny was to be used… It’s all a perspective game
“Their Coming”, Jacob’s dying words.
Illiana and team Latin speaking shadow hunters. lol
Who is the “they” though? Did he mean the people outside who had just found Locke’s real body or the 815ers from the 1970s?
Yes.
My brain just blew a fuse.
Holy crap. That opened up a whole new set of questions… *glares quasi-menacingly*
But that’s the beauty of this show. The thought, the detail, the allegory/metaphor.
even though jacob has been stabbed, as soon as they walk outside ben is going to see dead john, and essau will be foiled, and jacob will still rule.
wow. great episode. sooo many things confusing to me, like everyone else.
1st thing i thought of after seeing the whole statue was stargate. could the island be a giant alien ship? i dont see why not. i watched the entire 2 hours with that thought in my mind. wouldnt it be great if “LOST” was what the alien ship was, not just the people on the island. have always assumed that the shows title referred to the people on the island and not the island/ship being lost.
if the “him” was locke, why would claire tell Kate not to bring “him” back? was it ever brought to kates attention that Locke was on ajira 316? i thought it was a jack/ben thing.
rose/bernard…..lame. was just talking to my friend as the show was beginning how we hadnt seen them since the flaming arrows. are their arcs done? they both said they were ready to die together, kinda throwing in the towel. more of a believer now that theyre the ones that they found in the cave. hee hee.
so, who was the major death of this episode? from what i gathered, none of our main characters actually died, that we saw. sayid was still breathing when jack left with the bomb. juliet was still breathing when she smashed the bomb. phils probably dead, i hated him anyway. i guess if juliets doing V, maybe she wont be back. was expecting something major. oh well.
i think juliets bomb going off will eventually be the same thing in essence as desmond turning that key. dip to white. remember the hatch and all the crazy magnetic stuff banging around, same thing as with the swan site. hopefully this explosion will set things straight. yeah right.
i watched kimmel afterwards and matthew fox had to rub in, again, that he knows the final shot of the show. it kills me that he knows. i swear, that shots gonna be of some giant ship leaving the earth. it better not be. same kinda ending life on mars had. talk about red herring.
look at it this way all you superfans. only 8 more months until LOST starts again. to break it down, thats either roughly 34 weeks or 238 days or 5712 hours or 342,720 minutes or even 20,563,200 seconds. shit.
I think it was 5-2 [maybe 5-3] and “marvin candle” is being filmed for an orientation video. Hes seated w/ a shelf behind him and on the shelf is an alien head. Gotta give my wife props because she noticed it not me. I wasnt frequenting this site then so you folks may have already been aware of it.
I hadn’t really entertained that possibility, but given the writers’ often unusual and erratic plot twists, I wouldn’t put it past them. Would that kill the point of the show? Maybe, maybe not. I kind of hope they don’t do it that way, but I’m with a lot of other people–
I’m in it for the ride. This show just continually messes with my head, and for that, I love it.
I think the main character death was supposed to be Jacob.
Jacob was the death. amirite?
Firstly: no words! The episode was just breathtaking!
(yeah, those are technically words, but still, WOW!)
I don’t think anyone’s mentioned this, but remember in a previous episode, Richard told Sun when shown the old Dharma picture that he “watched them all die” (them being the 1977 Losties etc). Whether that’s true or not, I don’t know, but since that mystery is still unresolved, and Richard certainly wasn’t at the Swan, then maybe he “watches them die” later on in his timeline?
I know the producers, and the actor who plays Ben, all said before this episode that they were done with time travel, but then they also said that the finale would resolve the “Whatever happened, happened” versus “We can change the future!” debate, but this episode left that open (although Chang got his arm messed up like he was supposed to, with the bomb going off right at the end and theevil Locke impersonating guy exploiting a “loophole” as Jacob put it, it’s still open). If there is time travel, and “Whatever happened, happened” is correct, then I’m thinking a little trip to the Purge for our Losties maybe?
yo, i went to bed and had to get up again because this is bothering me. what was richard talking about? maybe he watched the explosion from a distance and assumed they died since they (jack/sayid) were in possession of a fat bomb the last time the visited. why also does richard now refer to hawking as his leader when he recently bypassed her standing when kate/sawyer took ben to them? i dont understand the dynamics of the richard/hawking/widmore relationship. very tricky.
another thing that bothered me as i sat in bed was suns non-reaction to being so close to the statue. this isnt the first time shes seen this thing.
the main thing i cant grasp right now and im sure itll haunt me for awhile, is just how meaningless everything now seems in relation to jacob and this other dude. everything that weve seen happen on the island and even off the island, only covers like 30 or 40 years. the introduction of jacob and his knowledge of the future and the past makes everthing that we know (or dont know) seem insignificant. that bothers me. jacob cant possibly be dead. the pseudolocke shows no concern at all except for what jacob says after hes stabbed by ben. i see a God/Devil relationship here. jacob trying to find good in people: sees kate after her 1st run-in with authority, sees sawyer as hes writing the letter he carrys with him his whole life (even gives the pen, loved that), sees jack after his first major mistake in surgery (maybe only?). the psuedolocke fella has done things to try and convince other people that god exists and exploits that to their demise. in some way trying to prove to jacob that peoples faith in him will eventually lead to fighting and chaos. did the same thing with ben.
why also does jacob give each of the losties something? kate/lunchbox, sawyer/pen, jack/candy, hurley/guitar (i thought to give back to charlie), locke/life, and sayid/?. is this just coincidental? def not with this show. loved seeing kates little plane too.
sheesh. gotta try to sleep again. im all pumped up. need to smoke a cig and hit the sack.
agreed. master stroke here w/ this finale
he gave sayid life, he probebly would have died with his wife!
yeah agree with you about sayid. but something i was thinking. everything jacob asked people to do, there was a choice in it, he specified it that the individual had a choice. hurley ben illyana. but in relation to going back to the island, sayid didn’t have a choice. ilyana gave him a boot in the head, put him in cuffs and away on to the plane. ilyana seems to work for jacob so presumeing she grab’d sayid for him. another big presumption but after faraday died, sayid was the only person who seemed to be able to make scence of his notes so think sayid is on the island for a reason to set of the bomb so if jacob wants it to happen then would it probably work.
also good christian bad christian, he appeared to micheal, your done now or something was micheals last day’s part of eassau’s masterplan?
re: Jacob seeing losties-He’s sees them at a pivotal point in their lives and pushes them on a path to be on 816.
So I have one last thought before I go to bed. Big what if here…just a thought.
So, let’s say the bomb goes off and it DOES re-set everything. For some reason, I am thinking it would be like one giant ass final flash forward to the future where they are all ok in the future, but still have all their memories etc. So those who died are dead, but everyone else just get’s flashed forward to the correct time. Maybe the plane does land, but they would all just be flashed right there to where they left off. Seems crazy…but very interesting.
I’m still confused though about one thing, could someone please explain. So, originally the Dharma people drill down and release that energy which then makes it so they have to push the button…so is Jack trying to blew up that whole area so that they never build the station and therefore the station never causes them to crash? Is that it? Thanks for the help!
yeah man, thats it. faraday told jack that if the bomb blows up the swan site then the swan wont ever be built, thus preventing the computer/button pushing thing from ever happening. juliet told sawyer that shed rather never meet him so she didnt have to leave him. jack and kate talked about never meeting. sawyer told jack about kate being in handcuffs. jack and kate talked about aaron being put up for adoption. all those possibilites revolve around life without the plane ever crashing.
Im pretty sure that whatever the bomb did, it didnt change things as they’d anticipated – because…cynically speaking..that would make for a slightly dull plot in s6
thats what i think/ hope! now we know that dead IS dead, and i still think what ever happened, happened. so the plane always crashes, and the losties always go back in time, and i guess are all in the temple with jacob having tea
while their new young selves crash, again and again, oh god i need to sleep!
i wonder if juilet becomes part of the smoke monster??? i mean she was wrapped with chains and the monster makes a sound like chains too!! that would be cool, maybe she makes the monster “beautiful” to locke when he sees it for the first time.
a killer episode, loved it!!
That could relate to the event when the monster was “flashing” at Kate and Juliet in “Left Behind.”
The ancient Greek text on the weaving Jacob is working on is from the Odyssey:
Σοι δε θεοί τόσα δοίεν, όσα φρεσί σήσι μεμοινάς
visible: ΘΕΟΙ ΤΟΣΑ ΔΟΙΕΝ ΟΣΑ ΦΡΕΣΙ ΣΗΣΙ ΜΕΝΟΙΝΑΣ
The direct translation is “I wish the gods give you what your heart desires”.
The bit at the bottom when Ben is inspecting it is:
Ούλε τε καί μάλα χαίρε , θεοί δέ τοι όλβια δοίεν
Visible: ΤΟΙ ΟΛΒΙΑ ΔΟΙΕΝ
Translates as: “Be well and be happy, and may the Gods give you joy.”
Also the whole weaving thing is reminiscent of Penelope, wife of Odysseus that promised her suitors that she will choose one of them when she finishes a weave dedicated to Athena. She was weaving during the day and undoing her work at night to prolong the wait.
Looking at this again (I am no expert in ancient Greek), the fact that the two first words are missing (“ΣΟΙ ΔΕ”) which is the “you” bit it could be translated as “Gods will give only what you desire.”
I found on the internet one literary analysis about the original text. The analsysis deals with the relationship of man and the divine in the Iliad. It reinforces the ancient Greek belief, which is so relevant:
“The gods are restricted (or limit themselves) to clearing the mind, to sharpening the judgement/reasoning, to apease the rage, to give men only as much as they can understand/comprehent.”
Remind you of something/someone? and…
“None of the Heros in the Iliad worry about the will of the Gods and attempt to perform it without question. They ask their hearts and decide for themselves.”
I translated it from modern Greek. Reading the original bit I had to double-check that it wasn’t a Lost theory page…
Thanks, Dude!
Good stuff…only wish they had shown us who was shooting at Locke, Juliet, Sawyer and Miles when they were in the canoe headed to the donkey wheel (early in the season before Locke left for the 06). They were shot at by shadowed figures that I assumed were the Ajira folk and a whole season went by without knowing who it was that shot at them and who it was that Juliet hit when she shot back. This kind of urks me because nobody ever mentions it and no one ever asks Darlton on their podcast about it and my letter’s never get picked because they only seem to choose letters from other countries. Blast!!!
Anyone have any ideas that can appease my mind over the next 8 months. The rest of this show is awesome and the finale was awesome, but this is something that I just can’t believe we don’t know yet because if they are in fact done with Time Travel, then there is a chance that this is one of those story lines that just doesn’t get solved. HELP ME!! PLEASE!! I need answers!!
I reckon that’s season 6 material.
Maybe even the season 6 finale material…
Well, in theory that scene took place when Sawyer, Juliet, and the rest flashed forward- as in far enough in the future that no one has experienced it..yet. Season 6 may indeed find the gang at that time, on the run/in pursuit of their latest bad guy, and the time-travellers will flash in at an inopportune time. My favorite theory is still that Sawyer ends up shooting his future self (not fatally, just a nick to piss him off).
By the way, I loved Bernard taking Sawyer’s line from earlier in the season. “Son of a bitch!”
if time travel is done now, then i think it was just whats his name, ?? that ben shot. he seemed pretty gung ho at one point.
Another point about the loom: Just under the ancient Greek at the top we have the Wedjat – “eye of Horus”, or “eye of the Moon” or “eye of Ra”. Originally it was the “eye of Wadget” (the symbol was initially called “Wadget”). Wadget was later associated with Bast, Mut and Hathor all previously discussed during analysis of the Lost-Egyptian relationship.
The eye is giving to or blessing the people below. The rays that turn to hands reminded me of Akhenaten and his attempt to impose a monotheistic religion to Egypt with the Sun/Aten as the only deity. An interesting image here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Akhenaten,_Nefertiti_and_their_children.jpg.
Okay, this is only semi-related to this episode, but I felt like with everyone here theorizing like mad, I thought there might be someone who could help me out with a stab at answering a question of mine.
So, do you remember the ontological paradoxes Lost seemingly gave us in the last few episodes? If you don’t know what an ontological paradox is, have a look at the Wikipedia article on it.
There were at least two I can think of. Firstly, we had Locke being told he had to die by Richard, then several episodes later, we learn that Richard told him this, because Locke himself told him to. But then where did that piece of information come from? What was it that lit the spark that Locke had to think he needed to die? Up until this episode, the very idea that “Locke needs to die” was stuck in a time loop, just like the composition of “Johnny B. Goode” in Back to the Future (who wrote it? Chuck Berry? Or Marty McFly?). But now we’ve learnt that the Locke we’ve seen “rise from the dead” was not really Locke at all, but an adversary of Jacob’s, in the guise of Locke. In which case, the idea that “Locke needed to think he needed to die” was spawned in the head of this new evil loophole guy, who then manipulated Richard into convincing Locke etc etc. So this is now not an ontological paradox anymore. Well done writers!
If you managed to follow all that, then what about Richard’s compass? When he told Locke he needed to die, he also gave him the compass, telling him to show it him the next time he sees him. Which he does, in the 50s. So then Richard gets the compass back then. But 50 years later, he then gives it to Locke. So unless Richard already had a compass when Locke gave it him, and so Richard gave Locke the second compass, surely the compass is stuck in a time loop, with no beginning or end to its existence?
Phew… hope that made sense. I’ll just say that I’m hoping any ontological paradoxes can be resolved by the writers for definite, but if not, they really don’t bother me too much as they don’t really detract from my enjoyment of the show. However, it would be nice if they were fixed is all.
Well, if Richard didn’t already have the comapss when Locke gave it to him in the fifties, why would it mean anything to him?
I thought “Christian” told Locke he had to die. This took place when they were time flashing and Locke went down the well. After he was told that he had to die, was he willing to do it, Locke turned the wheel.
Richard does, while he is tending his gunshot wound. Remember Pseudo-Locke/Anti-Jacob tells Richard to tell Locke this.
It’s possible that “Christian” is Esau (since Esau can assume the visage of the dead), which actually fits in perfectly with Alex’s summary.
john says to christian”richard told me i have to die” and then christian goes “thats why they call it sacrifice” or something to that effect. jesus i know the script a little too well.
Locke didn’t tell Richard to tell Locke he had to die. Esau did – that’s where the idea originated.
Just to clarify my previous statement – it was Esau (in Christian’s body) in the cabin that told John he was gonna have to die. Then later it was Esau (in Locke’s body) in the jungle that told Richard to tell John he had to die.
Agreed, but as I said, I am now perfectly happy about that “paradox”, as it was resolved in the finale, but the compass thing hasn’t.
If you go and watch the video, I believe it’s on this site, where Cuse take questions from a University visit he addresses the compass. He said they are done with talking about the compass and its origination. It’s forever stuck in a time loop and they are going to leave it that way. It’s just a “fun idea” basically.
He and Lindeloff said something to the effect of:
It’s a an interesting idea that we purposely put in there… what came first? The chicken or the egg?
It’s part of the story that’s supposed to mess with our heads.
I’m psyched they flashed back to the time Jack ALMOST didn’t get that candy bar.
Great episode, though. Perfect ending!
lol
Back in the day that would’ve been a full episode too! That’s what happens when there’s a writer’s strike though; quality storyline get cut out!
listen .. are we to assume that the “you look just like her” comment made to juliet in season 3(if i recall) is indeed reference to Eloise, and from there we can also assume that Ben/Widmore’s power struggle is for their love of their “leader” as Richard calls her.
No, on Lost we are not to assume anything at all.
I thought it was a bit so-so at first but after a while thinking about it I found I enjoyed it more.
Definately think that quasi-Locke’s real name is Esau and that he has something to do with the Monster – taking on other’s forms, intent on killing rather than giving life like Jacob is. I mean, c’mon, he was really hairy too; he MUST be Esau! lol So that means that Christian is probably a bad-guy too now and not speaking on Jacob’s behalf? After all, he was the one who cemented it in Locke’s head that he had to die. If Christian was “Esau” then he’d certainly want a puppet who thought he was on the right side.
If that’s the case, is Hawking on Jacob’s side or “Esau’s”?
Poor old Locke, so he’s still dead then? And the only guy who could help him is now toasty too. Unless Jacob gets some kind of resurrection himself? Definately see the Island as a “God” type figure and Jacob and “Esau” as the two guys fighting for it’s attention.
It depends on how far the comparisons (if any!) go, but do you think maybe Jacob took something from “Esau” and that’s why he’s at his throat?
Also, maybe the conflict that they are in but not being able to kill each other, is similar to Ben and Widmore? Does Widmore have any further part to play in the story? I certainly hope so, so much was put into him and we still don’t have all that much reason for why he did any of what he did, well, aside from him being a greedy guy, but there must be more to him than that?! Maybe he’s “Esau”‘s lietenant like Ben was Jacob’s?
Any thoughts?
Now we see that Ben never really worked for Jacob, but for Esau who deceived him into thinking he was Jacob. Maybe Widmore wasn’t lying when he told Locke that he was on the side of good.
I pressed the best episode ever button! [for the first time] Ive always selected above average for every other episode [Its LOST how can it not be at least above average] save one episode I selected average. [how is that possible w/ LOST]<— lol
Anyways this season for me has been the exact opposite of what drew me to the show. Its been the interaction and the history of the characters that Ive enjoyed from day one. This season has not been big on that. That being said I am emotionally invested in the characters and therefore all thats going on this season is still of great interest to me. This episode [for me] was in a lot of ways a return to the roots of LOST. Ive read thru the posts and many seem to feel juliets motivations were wrong and this and that but for me it all made sense. The scene were Juliet fell literally made this 6’4 240 lb grown man from the streets cry. I felt like I was back in touch w/ the characters and what motivated them as opposed to simply observing what they “have been doing”. What they are doing is great to see but I wanna know WHY they are doing it.
Thats what I loved about the other seasons. You would see sawyer acting like scum or Jack being an ass <–haha Or kate man hopping or charlie using and you would say, ” whats the deal w/ these people” then youd get a flashback to their past and see what it was that shaped them into the person they had become. Most of the time it would garner empathy from me and in fact I believe LOST has taught me to be a better person this way. I actually take the time to think, “hey I dont know what this person has been thru,and theres probably a good reason they are acting this way”. LOST has done that for me and thats one of the main reasons I love it.
Mushy stuff outta the way
So if the nuclear blast is not “the incident” and time for the Lostys has indeed been reset would that erase the death of Jacob? I mean if the plane never crashes then Locke never dies and “evil twin” never has “the loophole” of john locke.
Im sure I had some other points/questions but after reading all the posts and replying to some Im a lil tired. One of my fav episodes of any show of all time.
Haha! Remembered one during my proofread! Ok so when we see Jacob w/ sayid. His approaching of sayid in my opinion CAUSES nadias death! Why didnt she get the touch of life? And did Jacob intentionally cause her death????
I think I had one more.. Ill come back if I think of it. Happy season fianle all! C ya next year!
“His approaching of sayid in my opinion CAUSES nadias death! Why didnt she get the touch of life? And did Jacob intentionally cause her death????”
According to Ben, Nadia’s death was caused by one of Widmore’s people (the man driving the truck). If that is the case (because Ben neeeeever lies!), then Jacob saved Sayid’s life by intervening! I’m guessing that Nadia would have been a sacrifice in order to save Sayid.
I think Jacob caused Nadias death. It causes Sayid to become an assassin.
oh yeah I remembered it
I was SUPER ADAMANT that Jacob was Faraday and would have bet the farm on it. I was wrong. SUPER WRONG. 
Here goes, and I apologize if someone above has mentioned this…I just couldn’t wait to post so I didn’t read.
The “evil” entity cannot kill Jacob because they are both immortal in a sense, much in the same way that Ben couldn’t kill Widmore and vice versa…it’s just against the “rules”. Thus, there was need of a loophole. I believe this other person is in fact the Smoke Monster. He is able to take the form of only those who are no longer living. The only way Jacob can be killed is by being invited into his personal lair where he is vulnorable, but in order to do this, you must first be the leader. Otherwise, you cannot be granted an audience with him. So, the Smoke Monster needed to find a leader to mimick. Up until Ben’s departure from the island, he was not able to kill Ben and assume leadership because Ben was never Jacob’s true chosen leader. Neither was Widmore. But, finally, there was a man named John Locke. He was chosen by the island…by Jacob himself. He was “special”.
So the Smoke Monster took on the form of Christian Shephard. This was supposed to be at Jacob’s cabin, where someone at some point in history had confined him by the ashes. Only now, the ashes had been broken, and he was able to leave. In the meantime, “someone else” had been using the cabin. Who? Ben…but even more than that…the monster. He, as Christian, pretended to speak on Jacob’s behalf to John Locke, tricking him into doing everything he’s done so far. Locke believed Jacob and the monster were on the same team, as we all did, and never once questioned what he was told.
The monster orchestrated it all. He needed Locke dead, but he knew as Jacob’s chosen he couldn’t do it on island. He had to get John to the US, where Ben Linus currently resides…the same Ben Linus that has been doing his bidding his whole life without even knowing it. After Locke was dead, his body needed to come back to the island for Smokey to take his form. And once that occurred, we have our LOOPHOLE.
He is now John Locke, the leader of the “Others”. Richard does what he says, Ben has been told to pledge his allegiance to Locke by who? The monster. It’s all been a centuries old elaborate plan…one that I believe is going to play out much in the same way as the Bible. Satan’s ultimate plan was to become God, and a course of action leading to the death of His Son through a group of willing servants. We know how that ended for Satan, and I assume a similar fate will befall our yet-to-be-named Smoke Monster about this same time next season.
But for now, the Monster, now finally the “leader” of the Others, has been granted a meeting with Jacob. And because of that…Jacob is now “dead”. So basically, dead ACTUALLY is dead, whatever happened ACTUALLY happened, and what’s done ACTUALLY is done. Who’da thought?
dead is definitely NOT dead, as proven by the fact that locke died when he fell out of that window, and jacob brought him back to life.
other than that though, nice note.
I am MOST anxious to see what happens when “Locke” comes out of the statue with Ben! Alpert and everyone else knows that the Locke in there is not Locke! What will “Esau” do when his cover is blown!?! AND what will happen to Ben when he realizes he’s been duped?!?
I enjoyed the finale, but the characters’ motivations were all over the place regarding Jughead. Sawyer, Jack, Juliet and Kate didn’t even behave like real people. I’ve never seen such bad writing on Lost. It almost became a soap opera.
I’ll be honest. I’m still reeling. There was so many things that happened that my poor little brain is still reeling.
First of all- fanservice. Putting Rose, Bernard and Vincent in was purely for us. Sure they built the cabin that Jacob later inhabited- (I think)but other than that it was nice to see them cater to us- even to answer the questions of where they were and how they were doing.
Second- well. I haven’t been able to think that far yet.
I think Horace built Jacob’s cabin.
That was the impression I had
Again, it was Esau. He pretended to be ghost-Horace for Locke’s benefit. He, Esau, then was able to further influence Locke w/ his “Help me.” and other such things he did via the cabin that he was trapped in. We still havn’t seen the trapping, but it must have occured post Jughead explosion. Since we know Rose and Bernard lived there in the cabin they built at least until then. I still think that after hearing of the bomb, they said “f#ck it” and went to the caves to wait it out, thus becoming Adam and Eve.
Good episode, not great. Jacob’s first appearance is kind of anticlimactic but then again his appearance could never top the anticipation of his appearance. The fade to white was kind of cheap and cheesy. The Incident was kind of like the Beatles’s white album, could have been better paired down.
What I really felt afterward was a sense that we could have seen all of this years ago and that we shouldn’t have had to wait five years to get this far in the story.
And poor Locke, you would think after all he is been through that the writers would finally give him some dignity but alas that didn’t happen. He died as he lived, a broken bumbling pawn.
Mack:
WOW! Did you hit the nail right on the head or what?!
“What I really felt afterward was a sense that we could have seen all of this years ago and that we shouldn’t have had to wait five years to get this far in the story.”
Couldn’t agree more with this statement. I’m glad we’re finally where we are in the story, but it does seem like we could have been here at the end of season 3 or at worst, season 4,
“And poor Locke, you would think after all he is been through that the writers would finally give him some dignity but alas that didn’t happen. He died as he lived, a broken bumbling pawn.”
The only thing that has kept me with any semblance of hope about Locke in this show is a podcast I heard (or maybe an article I read) about 3 years ago in which the producers said something like, “at the end of this show they’re going to want to erect a monument in Tallahassee in honor of John Locke.” I’ve always, however, felt he was just a broken, bumbling pawn and nothing really special. I was vindicated with the finale ending in that regard, but at the same time, I wish I had’ve been wrong about him. Who knows, maybe they have something cooked up for us with season 6 with Locke.
first. you can tell the whole story of anything in a few words. for instance your life: born,lived,died. the end. WOW what a great story! The LOST folks gave us what we wanted. Material,details. It seems to have been enough to keep you coming back for half a decade no?
second. as jack said, dont give up on locke. This story is FAR from over and I wont say I told ya so when Locke pops back up somehow. Out of all who Jacob appeared to he was the only one Jacob brought back to life. You think he cant do it again? What that you say? Jacob is dead? LMAO you REALLY think Jacob is done? 5 years of bulding towards his appearnce and hes never to return? hmm…. OK!!!!
Remember the van with Locke’s body inside, that Ben was driving around? It had a name on the side that was an anagram for “Reincarnation”. Now, we all thought Locke was RESURRECTED, (we now know that is not the truth), but what if he is going to be reincarnated later on? I don’t necessarily think this is going to happen, but…
OK, I have a mild gripe with the finale. I find it a bit late in the show to introduce another level of conflict on the island…that between Jacob and “Mr. Mister,” which is what I am calling him. Sure, we’ve known about Jacob for a long time, but the fact that he seems to be in some cosmic game of chess or social experience with Mr. Mister, is new, and with only one season to go, a bit late to introduce.
I mean, first we had the Losties vs. the Others; then we had the Losties/Others vs. the Freighter/Widmore, and overall, Ben vs. Widmore; and now this. To me, Widmore has become irrelevant…he’s just some guy trying to get back to the island. But the main arc of the show is Jacob vs. Mr. Mister.
My take on the relationship between Jacob and Mr. Mister: based on the conversation between them on the beach at the beginning of the show (with the Black Rock) and also Jacob’s comments to Ben at the end, I think that Jacob is some manifestation/representative of “free will” and Mr. Mister is that of “fate/destiny.” Their comments to each other, Jacob’s telling Ben that he has a choice, and the other guy (as Locke) implying Ben doesn’t have a choice simply because he was wronged/disrespected by Jacob in the past (which would give validation to Ben’s killing Jacob) makes me think LOST is, overall, a cosmic experiment between these two forces.
What did Jacob say at the beginning? “It only ends once. Everything up to that is progress.” in response to Mr. Mister saying that people who arrive on the island (whom Jacob apparently brings as study groups for the experiment) only kill and destroy.
And I found it funny that Miles finally threw in some logic by saying that the Losties could cause the event they are trying to prevent. Reminded me of Yoda in “Revenge of the Sith” realizing at the zero-hour that the prophecy about Anakin’s balancing the force may have been misinterpreted.
I, however, think Jack was right and the incident was not due to the bomb. Jacob’s saying “they’re coming” right before “Locke” kicked him into the fire was in reference to the Losties in 1977. I think Season 6 will begin with them arriving in 2007.
Juliet is one tough woman, and tied with Desmond as the most courageous character. Oh, and what, no Desmond?!
I don’t think it’s another conflict. I suspect them to all be inter-related.
“I think Season 6 will begin with them arriving in 2007.”
Wait a second… How would that be possible if Alpert told Sun that he watched them die? If the “Whatever Happened Happened” theory is in place they’re all dead. Unless…the bomb changes something to where they never die which makes Alpert never watch them die in the first place.
hahaha AWESOME! DOUBLE AWESOME!
I did take a spanish class or two a few months back and it sounded like the answer to “what lies in the shadow of the statue?” was something along the lines of “he is”? could be wrong but that would sortof make sense – if that was spanish Richard was speaking, which i think it was…
Interesting bit: didnt Jacob end by saying “theyre coming”, leaving faux-Locke looking pissed off? guessing the nuke/incident WILL in fact therefore bring people back, although i dont know what sort of “war” they have lined up.
Other interesting bit: given that the inscrutable-but-benevolent godlike jacob automatically brings to mind a good and loving god who is nonetheless compatible with free will, youd think it would be fairly safe to assume that his oppsite number was a proxy for all-purpose evil. …but he isnt really, is he? im not saying he may not be almost amoral, but his sentiments in the opening were more about not wanting people to come because it would end badly..rather than cackling madly and inviting the prospect.
Third interesting point: Ben took Locke to the cabin…but it turns out Jacob wasnt in the cabin. Jacob was in the statue. Jacob’s opposite number was in the Cabin, right? Ben learnt everything he knew about jacob from Richard, who knows that Jacob lives in the foot. Therefore, why did Ben think that Jacob was in the cabin? ..what im getting at is: is Richard on the “other” side? …the character is likeable, but..well this may sound stupid, but, he does wear black an awful lot, and we know that black/white is a deliberate motiff, and like i said..Jacob’s opposite number isnt precisely evil as we would generally use the term. …At any rate, his behavior is certainally confusing – he seemed unsure and perhaps worried after the box reveal at the end of the episode, but…….cabin? Ill admit ive probably missed something which explains all this…
Locke: i think that was monster-locke and that he was merely pretending not to know what had happened to ben.
Jacob: interesting that he wasnt allowed to tell Ben “that’s not Locke”.
Ben didn’t think Jacob was in the cabin. Ben said as much. He used the cabin to try to trick John into thinking that. Ben never knew where Jacob was, because was never the true “leader” and thus could never have an audience with Jacob.
hmm…do we think that implies ben knows about the anti-jacob fella?
Could the major character death be referring to Locke?…basically we see he is dead in the box. He may have been dead for some time now, but we didn’t know that with fake Locke running around. Now we know for sure that he has been dead the entire season.
Many people are looking at the line from Jacob to Ben as insulting “What about you?”. I see it as Jacob saying that at this moment is where Ben will choose his destiny. The choice to kill or not kill Jacob is how Ben’s character will be judged. What about you Ben, which side are you on is what I read into it.
I think you’re 100% right in this. The major character death this season was Locke. We just didn’t realize it until the finale.
I thought he was asking not so much in a “choose your desnity!” manner as he was asking Ben to consider if he felt his own ego and anger mattered enough to him that he would kill somone – although the ultimate effect was pretty much the same anyway. It was a really, really well delivered line eitherway, since we’re talking about it lol. That guy played inscrutable to a tee!
A lot of people asking for this:
Richard answers the question “What lies in the shadow of the statue?” in Latin with “Ille qui nos omnes servabit” which translates as “He who will protect us all”.
Thanks, I have been looking for the answer to this all morning.
ahh, so it was latin lol. ..thats…kinda like spanish. ahem.
The recap on TVguide.com says the Latin is “That which we protect.”
http://www.tvguide.com/Episode-Recaps/Lost/Lost-Episode-Recap-1006045.aspx
I am pretty sure it means “He who will protect us all”.
“Ille qui” means “He who” as opposed to “Ille” (“that”). “Nos omnes” translates to “us all”. “Servabit” is is third person singular future active indicative of “servo” (to protect or watch over), so it translates to “he/she will protect”.
Folks, cast you minds back to Season 1. The clue was there all along. Just jogged my memory on lostpedia ” Black and White” and came across the following :
Claire had a dream in which Locke has one black eye and one white eye
Sorry, but this is a little vague even for Lost. From that one piece of information, what exactly is your theory?
that there would be a “bad” Locke im guessing
Alex,are you watching froma back and white tv set? ( excuse the pun, not inteded ) There are a great amount of theories circulating on black vs white, good vs evil, who is wearing black and who is wearing white. Chess boards, backgammon, all black vs white. One eye black, one eye white. Good Locke ( White ), bad Locke ( black )There, Alex I think you better watch Lost season 1 again, and have a bit of a refresher
Does anyone else think that the eye we see after the fade to white is Juliet’s? That was my first thought and I’m more convinced after reviewing the screen shots of Juliet.
It’s either her or Jack. . . waking up on the island in 2007, I think.
. . .or in the “exit point” in Tunisia where they will get with Widmore to go back to save the island.
It would certainly make her experience and Desmond’s similar.
EYE? WHAT EYE? sorry, my download just flashed to white, was there and eye at the end then?
I second that. WHAT EYE! I didn’t see anything, and i just rewatched it on abc.com….
Random Question: How would Rose and Bernard know they were 30 years in the past?
They never said they knew that – did they? Although they did seem to be aware of the fact that everyone had joined up with the Dharma Initiative so maybe they are just super observant.
Rose made some mention of time travelling 30 years in the past.
I can get figuring out that they’re in the past, but I don’t know how they’d know it was exactly 30 years.
Perhaps they knew about the dharma stations and that they were operational roughly 30 years ago; they could have found this information somewhere in the hatch or…elsewhere.
They knew where and how far the DHARMA barracks were from their camp, so maybe they knew the general timeline? Sawyer was also examining some DHARMA canned goods that they had laying out, how did they get these? There wouldn’t be any abandoned stations to raid yet. Maybe they were trading with some kind hearted hippies who told them the year?
they may have figured it out over three years. They got close enough to scavenge from the DI, so maybe they pick things up.
They used their eyes and ears over 3 years.
the more i think about it, the less satisfied i am with the season finale. they really shat the bed with the jack/sawyer/kate/juliet storyline. i can’t believe how off the mark that whole scene was, and it really spoiled the episode for me. it didn’t make any sense and really was not the logical progression of the story. they set up these characters for 5 seasons, and especially in this season, to deal with all of these science/faith issues, time travel theory (“no changes” vs. “variables”) and morality plays and then in the season finale they make their decisions based on who they are in love with? and even THAT didn’t make sense. for instance, why would jack want to detonate the bomb and change the story BECAUSE he had, and lost, kate? so, they went down the completely wrong path, and then their execution of their errant decision didn’t even work.
i’ll still be into the last season and i’m into it and all, but they really screwed the pooch. in the bum.
in fact, you know what? here’s an off-the-top-of-my-head rundown of how this stuff should have happened:
- jack’s motivation is to change things primarily because so many people have died (both in the crash and thereafter) and he thinks he has a chance to change that (thus covering both his morality, sense of leadership, empathy, and also his savior complex). he feels empathy and sadness over their deaths as well as personal guilt because he was the leaders of the castaways and some died on what he feels was “his watch.” he loves kate, but is willing to sacrifice that love in exchange for, in his eyes, “setting things right” for the greater number of people. (he’s also heartbroken and seems resigned to believing that he never really had kate in the first place.) his storyline also includes a heavy emphasis on the science/faith issues, and he clearly now believes in destiny and believes he has to detonate that bomb and become the variable that daniel told him and kate about.
- kate doesn’t want him to detonate the bomb because she’s unconvinced his theory of time travel is correct and because she loves both jack AND sawyer, and since she is unconvinced jack is right, she’s worried he will be wrong and they will all die for nothing when he detonates the bomb. kate also has a selfish motivation in that if everything is erased she’ll be right back on that plane, never having been loved by jack and sawyer and never having experienced her own personal growth (through leadership, sacrifice for others, and motherhood), and headed for a nice long jail-stay for killing her father.
- sawyer… i don’t think sawyer gets into the “whatever happened, happened” vs. “variables” discussion because he’s just never really been involved in that whole conversation. he does seem to be more on the “variables” side in that he thinks he and juliet can just go off and live this nice life, betting on sports and other things they have advance knowledge of. his motivation is really, primarily, his love of juliet and, like kate, his instinct to protect his own personal growth since the plane crash (if everything is wiped away he goes back to being a complete @sshole/loser who just killed an innocent man and he never has the experiences/relationships that helped him become a better man).
- juliet is a character they could have had some fun with, but i kind of felt like they shat the bed with her the whole fifth season. she’s smart, though, and on some level has feelings for jack and a certain connection with him (so she can understand him a bit and empathize with where he’s coming from), and i think juliet could have kinda been the “variable” as far as these four characters go. she could have been the one to challenge jack’s time-theories. her personal motivation would be that she wants to get off the island and that she’s in love with sawyer, but she, like jack, is also able to analyze and argue about the larger issues at hand (time theories, morality plays, etc.).
and voila, the entire season finale is more compelling and makes sense in the context of the 5 seasons we just sat through instead of being an episode where, after 5 years of setting up all of these complex and interesting issues/arguments, they throw their hands up and say “well they’re all in LOVE and CONFUSED by it, so we want to blow up a hydrogen bomb.” that. doesn’t. make. sense. and it cheapens the 5 seasons we just sat through. that short sequence killed the finale for me. i think the producers/writers know they’ve gotten into the sci-fi and mythology stuff pretty heavily and wanted to make sure they gave the viewers some character-stuff, but they dumbed it down so far and completely forgot about the important motivations for these people. it’s not “i love someone so i want to blow up the island” or “i love someone so i’m going to get us onto a sub and abandon hundreds of people i care about to die.” how simple and cheap.
“then in the season finale they make their decisions based on who they are in love with? and even THAT didn’t make sense.”
It made (some) sense to me, since isn’t that more true to real life? Don’t we all make decisions based on our feelings for others? Isn’t real life often clouded by love?
“for instance, why would jack want to detonate the bomb and change the story BECAUSE he had, and lost, kate?”
Because he had lost Kate, so he wanted to forget she ever existed. If the plane lands in LA, then he never knows what he lost, and the pain that comes with it.
Not saying I totally bought their motivations, but it made some sense to me.
wars have been fought and people have given thier lives [and taken them] for love. It is the most powerful motivator on earth.
If you follow Jack’s story carefully you will find out that since he opened his eye (sic) on the island in the pilot episode it’s been mostly misery for him. Very few good moments and most of those to do with Kate.
In fact the only motivation to keep this timeline would have been Kate. The fact that he irrevocably lost the only thing that made this timeline worth keeping is motivation enough to wipe it out. Besides, right now he is an addict fugitive loser on a strange island and he sees this as his only purpose in life. What other options does he have?
As for Juliet, are we sure she is dead? Detonating a thermonuclear device next to you (by hiting it with a rock nonetheless) may be severe enough in the real world but this is the island we are talking about. There was another massive explosion/implosion earlier but Desmond survived it – minus his clothes. Hey that wouldn’t a bad development in this case…
All I can say is, you can’t please everyone. I am pretty sure the grand finale next year will also dissapoint some. We’ve been through this already with the Matrix sequels…
Guys it’s all about character arc here. Jack is doing this because he realizes it is his “destiny”. He’s not Jack anymore. He’s finally come to the place where he realizes some things are beyond his control…and I think this will play well into him finally becoming the hero we first thought he was…because he’s faced his pride and arrogance and analytical mind and come to the ultimate conclusion that it’s all pointless. Now that Bernard and Rose are safe and sound in a cabin, I predict Jack and Kate will end the show hand in hand in the caves, dying together…just like Adam and Eve.
Locke was the Man of Faith – the Man of Destiny and look where it got him. He’s the most pathetic character in all of Lost. Free Will is what it’s all about. Forget putting your faith in some predestined future! Make your own choices based on what you want, like Sawyer says, and own up to your decisions.
Interesting point, but the same can be said for Sawyer: look where his free will decisions have got him.
In any case, I know I flip positions all the time and frequently rely on my ‘gut’ to make a call. The losties truly are Variables, adult children making huge decisions based on suppressed emotion and the need for purpose.
Chris in Fort Worth
Agree with you 100%. It is possible to argue away Jack’s motivations (as others have in the replies). But Juliet’s are impossible to justify: “I changed my mind when I saw how you looked at her.” “If we never meet, you’ll never leave me.” WTF? Lame Lame Lame
Yeah, Juliet’s position last night didn’t make any sense. It wouldn’t have bothered me so much if they hadn’t been exploring these characters for 5 seasons. To me, that’s the real crime of it. They have been telling an amazing story; they easily could have made those scenes between Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet work and they would have been the best scenes of the finale.
I HOPE THEY ALL DIE. ESPECIALLY KATE. I WOULD LOVE IT IF SEASON 6 STARTS OUT WITH THE SMOKE MONSTER EATING JACK’S FACE. I HATE THIS SHOW NOW. I AM SO DISAPPOINTED. I DONT EVEN CARE ABOUT JACOB ANYMORE. F*** HIM. I AM GLAD HE IS DEAD. I HOPE THEY ALL DIE SOON NOW OR SOMETHING REALLY LAME HAPPENS LIKE THE SEASON FINALE OF SEASON 6 IS JACK WAKES UP AND IT’S ALL A DREAM, AND THEN A MOB OF ANGRY LOST FANS KILLS JJ GAYBRAMS AND GAYMON LINDELOF.
I think someone needs to lay off the caffeine.
This sort of nonsense is allowed here and yet when I am telling that awful recapper SonyaLynn when her next pill is due, it doesn’t post up? God help us all.
If you are angry about Juliet, I want to assure you that the minute the chain grabbed her, I opened my bottle of champagne, and once she dropped and oozed blood from her mouth, I filled the glasses of those of us not gathered just for a LOST finale party as usual, but to toast to the end of Juliet. She is of no interest to the Island, Jacob or me. Only Ben.. and he has bigger fish to fry. Then Sawyer used her to get over Freckles and tried to do right by her but the Island was having none of it and smokey came in the form of chains and took her down the pit. The sooner we return to the original cast, the better.
Don’t know if this has been mentioned, but I’ve just been wondering:
Why are we so sure that Jacob’s enemy is the bad guy here?
Was that the “red herring” someone mentioned above?
I’m not. He gave Sawyer the pen to write down his anger. He stopped Kate from getting busted for stealing, which have prevented her from becoming a thief. He didn’t stop Nadia, but stopped Sayid.
Jacob did nothing to help the Losties in their lives off the Island. Kate grows up to steal and kill, Sawyer becomes a con-man and a killer, he keeps Sayid from getting killed but not his beloved wife. All Jacob did was guide them so that they would end up on his Island. He tells Hurley he’s blessed and that he should return to the Island. For what? I don’t see this as helping them in any way. He is simply using them as pawns in his game against his brother.
I agree. Kate had already stole, Jacob paid for it(crime does pay), He gave the pen to Sawyer to foster his anger, and he wants Sayid alive, not Nadia.
shallow obsevations and one sided. I mean that as nicely as possible. The interventions of Jacob may seem to have “done nothing” and perhaps to even fuel these peoples bad descions in life. But ask yourself what if he hadnt intervend? Would Kate end up being a mass murderer instead of killing one man to defend her mom who was being beaten?
We all have our own decisions to make that determine the rest of our lives. And yet we can all point to a moment when “the kindness of a stranger” impacted us. You may still go on making the wrong choices. i.e. Not putting up your cart at the grocery store. Not turning in the wallet you found to the service desk,fudging on your taxes for that extra tax break. But rather you realize it or not you were affected in a positive way by “a Jacob”
On the flip side you can grow cold and bitter and not acknowledge this kindly intervention in your life and dismiss it as the act of someone who is simply trying to endebt you to thier service so you can be used as a pawn. I dont think the chessmaster needs a bitter old pawn and is definatly wise enuff to realize “thats what you are” but that probably wouldnt keep him from reaching out to you. After all, he is the Good Chessmaster.
he said to kate, you won’t steel again will you. she made a choice, presume not to. the man who came up to sawyer after he gave him the pen empasised choice to swyer. hurly, he told about the plane but empasised he had a choice to go or not. sayid didn’t have a choice, wasn’t offered one, either was jack, he said about the candy bar, all the machine needed was a little push, presume he was talking about jack.
so maybe it’s not as simple as jacob free will the brother destiney. some are chosen, some have a choice.
Jacob did enable these people to become who they became. This wasn’t the kind act of a stranger, a stranger doesn’t know you and you don’t know them. Just because they didn’t know him, doesn’t make him a stranger. It’s clear to me that Jacob knew exactly what he was doing and who he was talking too. The same reason you’re parents told you to never take candy from a stranger. Let’s not forget that the same people Jacob “helped” are also the ones that were left off “Jacon’s list”, when they first “landed” on the island.
The fact that he is wearing black and Jacob is wearing white. Jacob has been helping people for a long time it seems. Also, Man#2 wants to kill Jacob and all evidence points to Jacob being good: “He who will save us all”
So, are Illiana and Bram Other’s? I know Jacob asked for her help, but who is she and her group.
Im interested in that answer as well. Another thing I thought of is what if Miles had joined thier group instead of widmores. Will be interesting to see where he ends up as a result of his choice.
The ‘loop-hole’ is likely that Jacob can only be killed by the leader of the Others, who, throughout time have been the ‘chosen’ people of jacob.
At the end of season 5 Ben is still their leader, and has been since after taking over the reins from Widmore. Locke was never meant to be the leader – Richard hinted at this when he mentioned that he visited John 3 times as a child and didn’t notice anything special. These visits occurred becuase during the ‘Jughead’ episode in 1954 Locke told Richard that he was the others’ leader, and told Richard to visit him as a neonate in 1956. Locke has been manipulated all along by the anti-Jacob to believe that he is the pre-destined leader of the Others just so that anti-jacob could take advantage of the loop-hole and manipulate the Others’ leader (Ben) into stabbing Jacob. Locke is henceforth the ultimate pawn in the ongoing duel between Jacob and anti-jacob (kinda sad for John…)
that or simply the fact that they just cant directly interact with eachother and so he’d have to get somone else to do it for hum
True, as that would echo the widmore-ben conflict
richard may have not noticed anything special but Jacob must have hence, “the visit”
The Others, I’m convinced, are jacob’s chosen people. He brings them to the island, and from amongst those he has summoned, certain individuals are chosen. This perhaps explains why Cindy (the snazzy scarf adorned flight attendant from 815), along with the children etc,. were talen form the tailies’ beach to join the Others. When Goodwin went to Tail Section beach and made lists I presume that Richard took those names to jacob, and he selected from amongst them.
On a slightly related note, Ben’s list of Hurley, jack, kate and Sawyer at the end of season was not from jacob – and was solely concocted to gather the individuals necessary to manipulate Jack into resecting Ben’s spinal tumor.
I like this idea! But, now I just want to know what Jacob needs with these people. They clearly are not on the island just for a vacation…but they don’t seem to be doing anything to world changing either…
who needs to change the world on this wonderful island. just simply “be” wouldnt that be nice?
Jack was revealed to be absent from Jacob’s list pertaining to the losties at that point (per the terribly casted, awfully underwhelming ‘other’ Danny Pickett.)
Thus Jacob had a list. Jack was not on it.
Regarding the eye-opening preview of Season 6: It’s green. Not blue; so not Juliet.
WHAAAATT?? What is this? Wtf i’m in Europe, we don’t get episodes up to credits!!
What about Lapidus? Ilana remarked that he may be a “good candidate.” He is obviously connected to the island since he keeps ending up there. I don’t think that they meant he should be the leader of the others. Could he be a replacement for Jacob? Or perhaps a leader for the “good” side in the upcoming war?
I took that to mean “a good candidate to be one of us” like some of the 815ers that were taken by the “Others”.
Didn’t you think that they seemed to defer to him a bit? They showed him what was in the box and all. Looking back now, it was probably just a plot device to build suspense, but at the time it just seemed to mean more. Only one way to find out!
Juliet hit the bomb….8 times…
4 8 15 16 23 42
Hopefully she’s dead.
You know, some of us really grew to love her. She was only there to do good and was manipulated by Ben and circumstances. Then there’s Sawyer’s NEW pain and loss. We cried for 5 minutes…
Wow. I guess Annoyed is finally relaxing a bit. This post wasn’t all CAPS.
Does anybody think that the fade to white in the end could have represented the last time jump? Every time jump thus far has been accompanied by the bright white flash. Maybe, this last time jump/flash, caused by Juliet’s detonation of the H-bomb, immediately sends Sawyer, Kate, Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Miles and HOPEFULLY Juliet into island present (where Ben, Sun, Lockeganger, etc. are) before they are harmed by the bomb. In the hour “Journey Through Time Special”, Damon and Carlton both mention how the flashes occur as soon as somebody completes a certain task that they might have been destined to complete, sending the whole brigade into a new time. I am convinced that Juliet was destined to set off the bomb, sending the whole brigade, including Juliet, into island present. Anybody have any thoughts?
That would be cool. I originally thought Jacob’s dying words “They’re coming” referred to Lapidus & crew. But other posters today have speculated he is referring to Jack, Sawyer, Kate and the rest, now back from 1977. If Juliet is along for the ride, perhaps they can redeem her awful motivations in this episode. Maybe she received a visit from Jacob at some point in her past, who gave her some reason for pushing Sawyer toward assisting Jack. Perhaps her goofiness in last night’s episode was just a cover story.
Sayid was still wearing the jumpsuit at the end of the episode. Looks like curtains for him – Roger workman’s skeleton is Sayid.
I think he was wearing a Horace jumpsuit.
He was.
And besides, we saw Roger die in the van already, just as he was found.
I couldnt read everyones post, so I dont know if this has been brought up..
remember when Locke saw walt and Walt said “I have been having dreams where you are on a beach in a suit and everyone around you wants to hurt you”
mayyyyyyyyyyyybe, the “They’re coming” Jacob said when he was dying, was Illana and team. and they were outside with Lockes real body. once fake locke leaves everyone will know he’s not real and want to hurt him.
maybe? eh?
I think that’s right on.
Agreed! Though he best be pulling a suit from somewhere then ha ha.
Locke’s not dead. The eye that opens in the end credits is his. Jacob will use his body as a vessel to be reborn.
WHHHAAAAATTTT EYYYYYEE!!
Is it after the credits roll?
Was it not part of the abc.com player’s version of the episode?
Can some one out there post a screen shot???
I FEEL LIKE I’M TAKING CRAZY PILLS
A question spin-off based on the finale: Would love to hear your theories.
which side is Ellie on? Does she know about these 2 feuding “brothers” from her time on the island? What were the circumstances of her leaving? Besides trying to change the details of Faraday’s death, is she trying to help Jacob too? Making sure Locke was getting on the Ajira flight kind of makes me feel like she’s working with the dark-side.
are Widmore and Ellie on opposite sides? As Richard said, “Love is complicated.”
Was Ellie a true leader or just a co-leader with Widmore?
your man eassu the man in black what ever seemed pissed of at constant death and destruction he was pissed at jacob for bringing more people to the island for it to happen again. he dosen’t live in a joint statue dedicated to himself, maybe he’s not the bad guy or the dark side.
When I saw the opening shot of Jacob weaving, I immediately though of Pip’s vision in Moby-Dick:
“He saw God’s foot upon the treadle of the loom, and spoke it; and therefore his shipmates called him mad. So man’s insanity is heaven’s sense; and wandering from all mortal reason, man comes at last to that celestial thought, which, to reason, is absurd and frantic; and weal or woe, feels then uncompromised, indifferent as his God.”
I love this effing show!
wow
And did no one notice that Jacob seemed responsible for Nadia’s death?
There are no “good guys” on lost; that’s what they’ve been trying to show us the whole time. And they made it ABUNDANTLY clear by setting us up to find out John was not John. As much as it appears there is some “higher” spiritual truth going on here, every ascent is subsumed by personal motivations.
or saving sayid, someone pointed that out above.
mm, and seeming genuinely benevolent throughout
WORST EPISODE EVER! I am no longer a fan of this show. Bad Bad Bad Bad BAD BAD BAD BAD. ARGH! NO MORE! I Am Done.
bye!
In a previous episode Richard goes to see young Locke. He presents him certain objects to choose from that are somehow his. How does Locke know what to choose if he has not been to the island before? There is even a drawing in the background of a figure with the smoke monster. Does this mean Locke gets a do-over if Jack and the bomb have changed things?
I also picked best episode ever for the first time in my 3 years on Doc’s sites. Just some thoughts, Jacob obviously was instrumental in bringing certain people to the island. The specific people they showed him “touching” all had a part in either causing (my belief) or preventing the incident. When he says, “They’re coming,” I believe he is refering to these people.
Btw, in total agreement that the statue is Sobek. Seems to make a lot of sense, and it definitely had the head of a croc…
Jacob is a Phoenix.
I certainly hope so. He seemed like a terrific guy.
Wow!
You have to watch the episode more than once to see certain aspects they put in front of us. Did anyone else notice after Kate mentioned Jack has a bomb on the sub Juliet’s continuous looks as if she was meant to do something even up to the very end. Was she the “variable’? I mean she was an other who became a lostie over the course of her time, “freewill”?
I also have to mention I liked the ending, but was absolutely floored with the beginning. How awesome was it to have Jacob and To-Be-Named in black and white (or good and evil) watch The Black Rock sail towards the island with a “let the games begin” conversation. They obviously lived through all this before from what I got out of it.
Great episode. Charlie, Shannon, Boone, Ana Lucia and Eko appear now to be very far away from what happened during these episodes (I mean, why have the writers taken so long to tell us the REAL story?)…
Juliet’ ending is a tragedy to me.
I still don’t understand Kate’s, Juliet’s and Sawyer’s change of mind just before the incident. Relationships and psychology were always consistent on the show, but in this season, writers have kind of freed themselves from it. Not such a great idea.
I’m sure Jack will remain an unforgettable character, just like in the ancient Greek tragedies.
I’ll have to watch it again to take it all in, but a few things stuck in my mind.
One is, who broke the circle of ash that released “Esau” from the cabin? Presumably it happened before Locke reappeared to the Ajira 316 crowd over on Hydra Island, and since there’s no prior evidence of Smokey appearing on Hydra, was the breaking of the ash circle what allowed him to take the form of Locke an island away?
As for Eloise, it appears that when she’s sending the 06 back to the Island, she must already be aware of the task they must perform (detonate the bomb), since thanks to her son’s journal it’s already been mapped out. Is the journal a time-looping object like the compass? They both “point the way” as it were, with the journal an object of science, and the compass, with its electromagnetic properties, a symbol of the Island, and presumably also for faith (it submits to a greater power).
At least the detonation of the bomb confirms my thoughts that the present-day Dharmaville would never have been inhabited by the Others/Hostiles in the new timeline (hence its run-down look, and the presence of all that Dharma signage and the photos).
Now we just have to find out what happened to Iliana to put her in that hospital when Jacob visits her…has anyone sussed out what country that was in?
Just had a thought! a good one! ..possibly!
What lies in the shadow of the statue? he who will save us all.
…then they tip out Locke’s corpse, into the shadow of the statue.
………..booyakasha!
comments?!
Not sure what this has to do with the price of rice in China, but did anyone notice that Jacob paid a visit to I think 5 people Sawyer, jack, freckles, hurley and juliette. Not sure why this whould matter yet, but Jack and Hurley were the only two who were visited fairly recently as far as the other three the seemed to get the visit around the same age only they were kids. Thoughts?
What I believe is that Jacob showed up at what we can believe is their life altering moment.
When lil’ Sawyer’s pen ran out of ink there was Jacob, imagine if he never wrote the letter that he carried for 30 years. IMO that was Sawyer’s “soft spot” without that he could be completly cold-hearted.
Kate, now all that she’s done was wrong but for a right or good reason because of her mom’s abusive husband. The Lunchbox was a deliberate bad decision where Jacob prevented by paying for it.
John, this I had a hard time to read cause Jacob actually felt bad for the guy and how he touched john was either coincidence in him waking up or he gave him life back. Difficult scene to interpret.
Jack, Jacob’s little speech most likely stuck with him about making tough decisions and in that aspect became “leader” of flight 815 survivors.
Hurley, this I thought was the best scene cause Jacob more or less came forward as himself not a stranger posing to be a regular person. He reassured hurley he wasn’t crazy and he has a role to play. Hurley was the only person Jacob basically revealed himself to.
Sayid, lets face it Jacob point blank saved his life and took away his motivation to play things safe.
Funny how the only person not on “the list” in season 2 was Sayid. The other 4 were on the Dock when the sky turned purple.
There was a scene with either Locke or Hurley (can’t remember which) where they showed the ash ring around the cabin and the character (Locke or Hurley) picked up some of the ash. Could this be when the opening was made for new-unnamed-dude to escape?
I remembered that scene, but I don’t think the circle was broken in such an abrupt way as shown in the finale this week. Was that Cabin Fever, or some other episode? I don’t have past episodes, but I wouldn’t mind seeing that scene again.
I believe it was “The Man Behind the Curtain” in season three, when Ben took Locke to see Jacob. Locke bent down to put his fingers in the ash(?) that surrounded this cabin.
Jacob is a good guy (white shirt) the other guy black shirt. Jacob and his nemesis have had a bet that people are good and bad. Jacob believes they are good but his nemesis believes that people are bad and will never change. They have been on the island for thousands of year trying to prove each other wrong. Jacob has been trying to find someone to take control of the island so that he and black shirt can leave, they need to find someone that can protect its special powers from getting into the wrong hands.
Jacob is using a machete to gut the fish at the start, but we find that Alana (?) in the shack finds Jacobs machete in a map (*) on the wall telling Alana where to go next. Jacobs a good guy guys.
johney cash wore black and he was a good guy. but your probably right. jacob seemed content with the nature of the island, albeit a cupple of hundred years ago so don’t see why he’d want to leave. the new man in black isn’t though, was he manipulating everything from the begining of the series and all through there flash backs or from the time jump when richard gave john the cumpass? when kemmy’s freighter was of shore, who didn;t want them on the island jacob or eassu? locke thaught the way mr echo’s shilealeagh was pointing when he died was a sign, he was killed by the monster, etc etc etc it’s a good twist if we have to go back to old episodes watch the same story but get a different story out of it
yep, but Kenney Rodgers wore white.
I think you are right about going back to old episodes and getting a different story out of them now we know what we know.
I am sure Jacob has a few Aces up his sleeve as he just let the knifing happen, and I’m sure he knew it was coming, as he was keen for Ben to think about just walking away.
You have a choice.
Also Black shirt guy needed Ben to kill(?) Jacob as the two of them for some reason can’t kill each other. And Richard says only our leader can request an audience with Jacob and only one leader can be on the island at a time, Ben is still the leader? He just doesn’t know it.
Don’t know if it’s been mentioned or not yet, but I wonder if one of the whispering voices in the jungle doesn’t belong to Juliet? Just a thought.
My biggest question right now is
why did Jacob threaded the time loop in the first place..?
Seems to me to prevent something from happening, and it could be simply to prevent the Black Rival from killing him and taking over.
So in a way the time loop was also a prison for his rival…
Why would the Black Rival want to kill him so much…?
Why does it only ends once?
(it blows me )how contradicting this is with the time loop that Jacob threaded…
But probably just because the time loop really only ends once..
..once you are out of it…
But wait… “They are coming…”
P.S.
I wonder if all Season 6 will start and finish with a white background & black letters… ;p
I don’t know if anyone else has said this, but… remember when “Locke”, Ben, and Sun were in Dharmaville, after the 316 crash? We saw “Christian”. Then after “Christian’s” appearance, “Locke” came out of the woods… Ben asked “Locke” what he was doing in the woods… Maybe Jacob’s Nemesis/Smoke Monster can only take on one form at a time, OR… “Locke” went into the woods to clear away the ash from “The Cabin”, OR… a while ago Claire was “possessed” and cleared away some of the ash for Jacob’s Nemesis to escape through.