In many ways “Dr. Linus” mirrored “Sundown”. Both were about characters struggling with a dark potential, and in both cases the struggle itself is motivated by the impact on the innocents around them. This week, though, the flash-sideways was more of a suspense play as we knew what the worst case scenario was for Ben – the big question was whether he would act once again to betray Alex; and he didn’t.
We’ll be picking the episode apart in greater detail over the next couple of days, but what really blew me away about this episode was Mr. Kitsis and Horowitz’s stunning use of simile and theme throughout the episode. The writing was fluid, masterful, and kept a lot of balls of various sizes in the air. I’d go as far as say this was the best ‘written’ episode of the season.
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195 Responses to “Rate and Rant – LOST 6.07 Dr. Linus”
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Dr Linus has a heart! But he almost had that killer instinct. Guess the healing spa was the tipping point.
Poor Richard…
Michael Emmerson got me a bit chocked up in his scene in the jungle with Illiana. What a great actor.
And that bastard Widmore is back!!!
Emerson was KILLING it this episode. I was in total awe.
I thought you would have enjoyed Arzt’s scenes the best… but I can see why you’d choose Emerson first.
To see how far ben had fallen out of the loop is saddening. Even though he mostly used his power for bad, I still feel sorry that he’s been reduced to a shell of himself. It was so cool that Ilana forgave him when he had finally hit rock bottom. That seen made me feel sorry for Ben. and the opening scene with Ben talking about the island and Nepoleon, AWESOME!
Same here–Emerson blew me away in every scene he was in.
When he almost walked off to join Locke, I really could see it going either way. Illana’s “I’ll have you” line completely changed the game. They were both fantastic. A really stand-out scene.
And hey, hats off to Nestor Carbonell. His character has always been interesting, but this is the first time he’s been given an opportunity to show a weak side and reveal some truth about his past. Carbonell nailed it, and Matthew Fox was also fantastic as a Jack who has suddenly found religion on the Island. The scene with the dynamite fuse running down, like the jungle encounter of Illana and Ben, was one of the best individual scenes of the series.
couldn’t agree more, on all accounts. jack/richard + dynamite was awesome. jack is back and he has richard on his side. very powerful, i believe.
and yes, the scene where ben accept illana’s offer was a game changer for ben. he could have gone back to his comfort zone, i.e. ruling the island (more or less) but he chose the righteous path. amazing.
Yup. Imagine you heard my fangirlish flailing all the way over there.
The apology scene with Ben and Ilana was absolutely stunning. Its moment like these, I remember why I love LOST so much. When Ilana finally gave her “I’ll take you.” line, I was absolutely moved.
It was of course a hilariously great pleasure to see Arzt again, along with Alex. I always loved her character. I knew everyone was thinking it though…what happened to Danielle? The sideways storyline is supposed to be what would/is? happening when 815 doesn’t crash..but does that also include Danielle not finding the island? Otherwise how is Alex on the mainland?
During the Black Rock scene I didn’t want Richard to stop spewing…he was headed for some good reveals. Can’t wait for those…and I’m SO happy to see Jack is coming to his freakin senses! About time he understood what was goin’ on with himself.
But of course, how could Widmore not come back to play a role in the end?..Really interested to see how that plays out.
Overall, great episode.
If the Island has been under water since ’77 than the french team would have never been marooned there in ’88. That’s how Alex is on the mainland.
Actually, we don’t know exactly when the Island “sunk”, but given what we’ve seen, there has to have been enough time for Ben and his dad to leave after the bomb went off. Maybe the bomb going off caused the Island to “move” differently than it had in the reality we know of, and Daniele’s boat “missed” the Island. Or… it “sunk” before Daniele’s boat came around to that area of the world, hence, she never set foot on the Island.
I hope that that’s not all we’ll learn about Richard – He came on the Black Rock in shackles. Somehow it feels like they’re done with him.
Given that he has his own episode coming up soon, I’d say they’re not done with him at all.
Richard’s long-awaited centric episode is coming up in two weeks: March 23.
Ahhh, that’s very good to hear. I love his metamorphosis to the frazzled crazed dude after Jacob’s “death”.
The episode was amazing
I guess man wants to find brightness and positiveness close and warm over the dark and hideous other side of mankind.
Lost definitely is the most amazing show that has ever been produced.
It changed my life. I, who was on the verge of killing myself from being broken, lost and desperate, was able to live and joy because of this show.
Tonight was one of the greatest episode.
I felt that Dr. Linus can be everyone of us in everyday life. We may choose what we temptedly want in life, superficial, but what is brighter and unregrettable is choice by heart, not through greed
Probably there may be Ben – Ilana love line as Darlton foreshadowed the plot!
If Lost doesn’t win multiple emmys next year, it is so wrong.
Thank you for sharing thoughts everyone. It really helps
Hey buddy, glad the show helped you deal with your problems
Emerson was incredible.
I LOVE the return of Jack the hero!
Richard: Well, you’re the one with the answers
Made me drop my jaw.
Illanna still isn’t likeable. I assume she’ll relax soon and she’ll be cool.
Maybe. I kept trying to decide if it was her acting, or the character’s just another one of Jacob’s preachy, violent, abusive “we’re the good guys” jerks.
I was still happy to see the last of Dogen and especially Lennon.
Flash sideways was kinda boring…although I was liking the appearance of Roger and the reveal of Dharma also being in the flashsideways.
Emersons performance was good, yes, but an average episode. I mean, c’mon. Not much happened at all.
That wasn’t a reveal–Dharma had to be in the flash-sideways, since they were on the island until 1977. The new timeline is the result of the bomb going off and Dharma being evacuated to the mainland. We already knew that.
no we don’et – that’s hardly been confirmed.
Actually, this suggested that’s not true. At the time of the Incident, Ben had already been shot and put in the pool. He also had a poor relationship with Roger who hated every minute of being on the Island. This was clearly not the same Roger or Ben who existed before the Incident.
We do not know that the bomb was the cause of the evacuation or the island sinking. The incident always occurred in the regular timeline.
And yes, Roger implies he chose to leave.
I think we have to assume that, though some of the history of the characters in the flash sideways did involve the island, it does not mean that events unfolded the same way in that story line. You have to think about them as two completely different realities. You can’t think about it as before/after the bomb did/ did not go off. In the flash sideways, none of the events leading up to the incident may have ever occurred. Each story is unique to itself, save for the fact that Jack, most obviously, and maybe Kate have shown that they may be aware on some level that something is off in the flash sideways. I dunno if that makes sense, but that is my take on it.
You have to go much further back than 1977 to start looking for changes, possibly at least until 1954, the year in which John Locke went back and told Richard Alpert to start keeping tabs on him. The butterfly effect from that first meeting (time-wise) in the Others’ camp NOT happening could lead to a bunch of different results. So it’s not just post ’77 that changes… it’s post ’54 or earlier. So the interactions of Locke, Faraday, etc. with the Others in 1954 could have changed LOTS!
Actually, I think the fact that Locke and company (especially Locke) went back in time, was a strategic move by MiB or Jacob, to influence future outcomes. It was just another (big) chess move….
Maybe.
Not much in the way of answers and conflict, yes. But there was character development by leaps and bounds. It’s good script writing, you see.
Glad you are still around
I thought this episode was amazing. Micheal Emerson deserves another emmy for his performance.
Emerson was phenomenal. I really liked Jack’s crazy dynamite thing, too. It’s like he’s totally embraced the faith route, but just for the hell of it he wanted some empirical evidence in the form of the Island not letting him die.
Well said.
Nicely done! I didn’t think about that. It was sort of an amalgam of science and faith.
I don’t know. Even Jack the zealot’s faith is still all about himself.
Just adding my two cents: I thought this episode was a great reminder of the character roots of the show. I agree that Team Kitsowitiz wrote a fantastic episode, and they were blessed to have Michael Emerson to deliver their lines with such emotion. His confession in the jungle to Ilana not only had me tearing up, but had my wife practically bawling. After so many years with these characters, watching them develop, what an incredibly rewarding experience to finally see their stories coming full-circle. It’s a testament to how much we know and care about the characters, not just the plot. I’m much more interested in how each person will find redemption than in what will happen to the Island, what it all means, etc.
MERE WORDS CAN NOT EXPRESS THE AWESOMENESS OF THIS EPISODE. I would like to share with you some interpretative dance I have prepared for this occasion.
Well, okay no I wouldn’t do that to you. I lovelovelove that he does actually feel guilty about what he’s done. I think I would watch Michael Emerson do just about anything up to and including reading a phone book in mime. He was just that incredible.
I found myself liking Jack a ..little.. for like 3 lines. I know, I feel like I should be in therapy for that. Just to share with you how scary my head is, the first thing I thought of when the dynamite pooofed out was Jack saying, “BAZINGA!” *shakes head*
I think the only thing that worries me about this episode, especially when compared to Sundown, was that you have Ben on Team
BENJACOB and you have Sayid on Team Flocke.. both killers who already have some really gruesome history together. Gee. I wonder if they’re setting us up for something?Come to the Jack Side Clue. Trust your feelings. You are welcome. All are welcome.
Dolce, dolce, dolce….
I’ve said this before, but I think that this whole deal is Jack’s story. His struggles with being a complete and utter douchebag, the Jears, the kinda cute way he screws everything up… all of those things must be fixed somehow. Think of the Jackfaces that shall ensue!! Well in 10 episodes, so they better skip to it. I fully expect this to happen. Once it does, and he’s done some miraculous heroic thing that makes him have to plug up all his orifices so the awesomeness doesn’t trickle out… THEN I might admire him.
Right now I just sort of admire what he could be. Maybe. A little.
*note* That scene with Richard and the dynamite? LOVED IT!!!
I thought ‘Dr. Linus’ was not only the best ep this season, but also potentially one of the best eps in the show’s run. Ben has long been a favorite character, but it was great watching what Emerson did with him here.
I love the way all of his once effective manipulation looked downright comical and pathetic in the face of his depleted power. And still, Emerson brought some real humanity to the role.
It dawns on me that for the very first time in the jungle clearing with Ilana, Ben was telling the whole, unfiltered truth. I don’t think he’d ever done that since he was a kid. Loved that.
Interesting note that Mario Van Peebles directed the ep. Seeing Will Atherton as the principal was great.
Noticed a few fun clues, including a book that Ben finds on the beach right after moving the smut magazine. Chaim Podak’s The Chosen.
I’ve written my recap up over at Atomic Popcorn, including the thematic connections between the book and Lost’s current events.
Check it out here:
http://www.atomicpopcorn.net/lost-6-7-review-redeeming-dr-linus/
Doc, Im looking forward to your review/analysis, as I think this might have been one of the subtly richest thematic episodes in quite some time.
I feel like we are starting to slowly get a more comprehensive picture of the Sideways universe and what it’s function is.
Nathan, I also walked away from that episode feeling extremely fulfilled. It gave me chills at times, like the ep where they find the first orientation tape at the swan.
Nathan, I enjoyed your recap of this breathtakingly intricate, emotionally layered episode.
No action, no surprises and most especially no answers… but what I find surprising is that its the best episode evar! At least for season 6. I wasn’t even blinking at all!
Did you notice how Lapidus’ character turned into this season? He’s all punchline. Ahahaha. I actually laugh every time he talks.
I just have one question though… Did Alpert and Hurley ever met during the 70′s? I can’t recall that they actually have. It’s just I hate to see inconsistencies in the plot line of my most favorite favorite favorite… and I reiterate more.. favorite TV show in the entire cosmos. 1977 is the only timeline Hurley had been to. There was really not much of an Alpert during that time except with Jack, Kate and Sayid when they went underground for the Jughead along with Hawking. So how did Hurley know that Richard still looks the same?.
Hurley: “So you’re not time travelling?”
Richard: “No”
Hurley: “But you look the same as you did 30 years ago?”
(I know big mystery to answer. lolz)
Yes, they met.
Which episode? Ughh.. I can’t recall.
Yeah, when? Hurley was still off island when Richard came to the middle of the barracks to see Horace, or when the flashers were in 54. Richard was at the Others’ camp when Kate and Sawyer brought Ben to him, and when Kate and Jack and Sayid and Daniel came with the bomb.
It’s a good catch. According to LOSTpedia, they hadn’t met before. The only option they offer is that Hurley was clued into Richard off-camera (similar to how Jin knew about Aaron being with Kate off-island). Maybe some things were talked about by the characters, and we just have to assume they were clued in.
Yeah I found myself wondering that too. I’d guess someone had mentioned Alpert and the just before that scene Jack said Richard looked exactly the same as in 77.
But what’s up with Richard appearing out of nowhere? He did the same thing when Kate and Sawyer went to see him last season, and then the characters mentioned it too. Something’s up, and I’m guessing we’ll learn in two weeks.
Here’s where I’m a little “Lost”. I’ve been under the impression that the flash sideways represent a timeline for the characters that occurs as a result of the fact that the island blew up in the 70′s and they never went there. However, in last night’s episode, Ben’s father says, “If only we’d stayed on that island. Just think what you could have become.” If they were on the island with the Darma folks, then they were there when the bomb went off. Ben had been shot and taken to the “others” and his father was running around the compound shooting Sayid. So at what point would they have left the island to avoid the bomb going off. I thought this whole alt. timeline is as a result of the bomb working.
It hurts my head to think about it.
if you think that the changes only occur after 77 then why wern’t you suprised that ben was chilling in the teachers lounge at the end of the substitute?
Before last night, it was plausible that his life up to the Incident was that same. He just left the Island at some point later.
i just remeberd dogan being of island was a major clue for things being changed before 77
baseball was intoduced to Japan in 1872 . . . . soooo he could totally be way before the 70′s
Really buddy? Cuz it never says that Dogen came to the island before 77′ and he doesn’t look that old, so I’m guessing he came after that.
IT didn’t occur to me during “The Substitute” (I think I was so shocked to see Ben at the school with Locke. But when his father specifically mentioned the island last night I was like, “huh?”
Maybe we need another Hurley/Miles exchange like the one last season…
I have come to the conclusion that it’s not necessarily the bomb going off that has created this alternate timeline, but the lack of Jacob interfering in our castaway’s lives. This, I think, is what would have happened had Jacob not touched them or drawn them to the island for his purposes.
Or kept them on the island by interfering. Yes, this is how I’ve been reading it too.
The Incident always occurred in the regular on island timeline. The thing that changed was Jacob’s death/non-existence. Still not sure how Locke survived that fall.
I would think this way as well… EXCEPT for the fact that the “enhanced” editions of the shows have been saying that the Flash Sideways are what would happen if the plane had landed safely. Now perhaps they are being intentionally misleading, but I don’t think so. However, I’m almost positive they are being (as usual) intentionally vague. There is a piece of the puzzle yet to be revealed to us.
I was thinking the same thing, but some things are different from before Jacob began interfering with their lives. Like, it is safe to assume, that Anthony Cooper is not a kidney stealing a##hole conman in the sideways world, so his life had to be different from well before the 70′s.
My theory is, since 815 never crashed, Daniel, Sawyer, Locke, Juliet, Charlotte, and Miles never time traveled to the 50′s. So they never met Widmore, Hawking and Alpert and told them how to deal with the jughead bomb. The Others evacuated in the 50′s from the treat of the jughead, which was leaking radiation the whole time. This change in the past caused a butterfly effect and changed things for the future.
The Dharma Initative came to the island and there were no hostiles and had free run of the island, but the bomb that the others abandoned sunk the island by blowing on its own, or the island sunk due to The Dharma Initiatives experiments.
as far as anthony cooper, i don’t think it has anything to do with him. without jacob, i don’t think locke grew up so angry and probably got adopted, which would be the “dad” locke and helen refered to
If the bomb meant the castaways never crashed on the island, then things are different long before 1977. Richard never sought out Locke, Faraday never told them to bury the bomb, Sayid never shot Ben, etc. The bomb WAS the incident in the prime-reality, but it didn’t go off in 1977 in the alt-reality because the castaways were never there to blow it up.
Bonus point on the “Hey, remember us?” graves of nikki and paulo. hehe. and Hurley on cyborg and vampire thing. I thought “I’m not a zombie” was the most awkward thing for a character to say, but with Richard! Man that was hilarious!
was the implication that miles dug up the diamonds from the graves? or did he have one diamond from somewhere else? you’d think someone would have stopped him from digging up graves!
where would he have gotten a diamond any where else on the island? he even mentioned to LInus about how he didn’t need his money because of the diamonds in nikki and paulo’s grave. i am certain that the diamond is from their grave and i would even bet that the reason no one noticed him digging them up, is because he had done this already at an earlier time. he has been on the island since season 4 with the abilty to see the dying thoughts of the dead, so he knew about the diamonds for a while now.
Except that the vast majority of his time was spent in the 70s, before Nikki and Paulo ever showed up to be buried alive. I do agree the Miles dug up the diamonds though.
The Nikki and Paolo thing was a funny throwaway line, but I shuddered just remembering how lame they were.
I know I’m in the minority, but I miss Niki. Paulo…not so much. But seriously, I would really like to see them invited back for a cameo in the sideways. As much as Darlton would like to forget them, they WERE a part of the show. They also need to get over their grudge against AA and let Mr. Eko return as well.
After denying Sayid redeption last week and his turn, this amazing redemtion of Ben was very, very moving…
The more I chew on this episode the more I really really liked it. Answers? Yes we did get them! 1. 6 Candidates (Kate!) 2. Richard more than likely did infact arrive on the Black Rock 3. Widmore was more than likely who Jacob was refering to in regards to coming to the island
Also, knowing going into the episiode that Alan Dale was on the bill, I’m glad Widmore returned the way he did (and not in some awkward sideways cameo). And folks, don’t go assuming he’s the bad guy… For me, that end of episode reveal was a portent of awesomeness to come.
Kate? I’m not so sure. I think the six remaining are Hurley, Sayid, Sawyer, Jack, Sun, and Jin. There are six numbers, and though Locke is one of those numbers, he’s no longer a canidate because he’s dead. However, Jin and Sun could both be #42. So the number of canidates is still 6. I think Kate does have a purpose, though, and that’s to somehow take down smokey.
Acccccctually…… The stupid “pop-up” version of “Sundown” revealed that Kate has indeed joined Locke’s group. Which is still a toss-up for me, but that’s what it said.
Ugh, sorry, I should’ve actually read the thread before responding. Not what you were talking about! As the kids say, My bad..
I know in previous seasons the Enhanced Episodes were made by an outside company with no direct connection to the production team, and the same is probably true this time around. Maybe they get some details from the Lost team (hieroglyphs, etc.), but they’ve also said some things that are just plain wrong, especially when trying to talk about the flashes-sideways.
I think we should take assertions like this that aren’t made explicit by the show with a grain of salt. For me, Kate’s horrified expression and the meaningful exchanges of looks at the end of “Sundown” signal that Kate is very much a free agent, and Locke is watching her with interest.
Agreed. Kate is one of the six.
Kate is NOT one of the six. We already know who the six are: 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42. Kate is 51.
Ilana told Sun that 6 are all thats left and she knows the Kwons are candidates therefore safe to say she knows about John who happens to be dead…so if she knows Johns dead and 6 are still left then whose the 6th…the name that wasn’t crossed out with is 51 Austen. So I believe that yes 51 is the new number 8,15,16,23,42,51
I only say the last few seconds of the enhanced episode from last week, but I thought it said something about Kate knowing that the real John Locke is dead, so she knows she is on the wrong side. I forgot that Locke isn’t a candidate anymore, so six would include kate.
I’m still not convinced that #23-Shepard isn’t Christian. His BODY is missing in BOTH realities.
don’t trust the enhanced episode writings. they are written by a separate production company and do not neccesarily reflect the Darlton’s thoughts.
Remember, one of the six was listed in the cae as “Littleton”. It could be Aaron or Claire….
Littleton was on the list, but it was crossed out already…so I don’t think it could be either one of them.
Well….I guess I would say don’t go assuming that Widmore is the one Jacob was referring to just because he’s the first person we see coming to the island. I’m sure there is more than one important person coming to the island….including Desmond. Widmore = Red Herring.
Once they went back to the beach, I was expecting we’d finally see the other side of the “time-traveling boat shootout” that we saw in season 5. I still bet we will see it soon.
the real fun part about it is that non of the people who where on the 1st boat is on the beach
miles is.
im guessin the baddies on the canoe are/were going to be Widmore’s guys.
owja thats right miles just slipt my mind but im geussing widmore would be more plausible
Did anyone get the sense from the tutoring scene between Ben and Alex that the Black Rock is a ship belonging to the East India Trading Company?? They did say that EITC did operate in the 1800s – the same time as the Black Rock. They did make a point of showing the picture of the tall ship (very similar to the Black Rock) at the beginning of this scene too.
YES. I actually thought they were going to mention the name of the ship when looking at that textbook photo! Oh how the writers love to tease.
Yes! I thought the same thing. it had to be the BR
Did anyone else notice that Henry Ian Cusick was listed with the “main” actors NOT the “guest” actors in the opening credits AND was not in the episode? Wasn’t much made (before the season started)of the fact that he had been “demoted” to “guest starring” status? Anyone have any clues as to what’s up with that?
claire was listed and you didnt see her anywhere in the episode and you know desmond is somehow gonna be playing a mayor role this season so main character is the best way to describe such an importand character
Remember season 4 when Michael was in the credits pretty much the whole season leading up to his actual return…. I hate when they do that.
Yeah, he’s basically gotten written out of his “intended” role for the final season because a couple women on the Lost film crew filed sexual harassment charges against him. True story. It sucks too because I love Desmond and want to see how he fits into the endgame, but he will probably just show up in a flash forward again and not do much.
Confirmation of this? I read about the allegations of harassment, but have never seen anything that said they changed the game plan as a result. I really wouldn’t have expected to see him very much so far anyway. He’s clearly got some role (bridging the universes or something, perhaps?), but I don’t see how he would fit into the current story anyway.
It’s one of the great ironies of the show, how many of the actors can’t manage their own island destinies and have ended up being written out/killed off. Jin must be central to the end game or they’d have left him in jail.
The sexual harassment law suite was filed by one woman and was settled out of court before season six filming started. But you are all missing my point. Before the season started much was made of the fact that HIC would no longer be listed as a series regular and instead would only be credited as a “guest star” in episodes in which he appeared. He was listed as a guest star in the credits with the other guest stars (Boone, Charlie, Arzt, etc.) in LA_X and hasn’t appeared in the credits again until last night when he appeared in the list of series regulars before the episode’s guest cast appeared. That is a SIGNIFICANT change. Hopefully, it means that HIC’s role is about to get much bigger quickly and that his early lack of inclusion as a series regular was meant to throw us off the fact that he will indeed (as I’ve always hoped) play a MAJOR role in the end game.
Who gets listed when in the credits has more to do with their agents and SAG rules than the desire of the writers to string us along.
I predict Desmond is coming back to the island….book it.
This episode by far was the best for the performance of Emerson. He was amazing in this episode and it was great to see him as a different person not healed by the pool. Still a bit confused about when exactly did Ben and his father leave the island to miss the hydrogen bomb. Also wondering how a Russian like Alex is somehow Ben’s student… Overall this episode answered some questions and had just the right amount of “moving stuff forward” for the last 9 episodes.
We don’t know that he wasn’t healed by the pool. All that we know is that he spent limited time on the island.
Alex isnt Russian, her parents are French. and even if she was there are tons of Russians and people from the former soviet union in the states.
My guess is that Danielle Rousseau probably still went crazy or had some other sort of mental breakdown, which is why alex said she had to work 2 jobs to make ends meet–kind of strange considering she is supposed to be an expert scientist, unless she isnt one in this timeline
She was on a scientific expedition, but was she a scientist?
Toward the end when she was somewhat flirting with someone at the door, I half expected Carl to walk out with her.
I was just relieved she wasn’t flirting with Principal Pervert.
Where’d you get the idea that Alex is Russian? It’s pretty clear on the show that she’s French, since her parents are both from France.
…and in Dr Linus, her character is named Alex Rousseau. C’est Francaise.
I thought it was a solid “feel good” episode that was a needed balance after the dark plunder of last week. We don’t feel super-advanced toward the end game after this one (much as we didn’t after Kitsis and Horowitz’s “What Kate Does”), but the character development was so satisfying, that it’s hard to complain. Ilana’s forgiveness of Ben was just flat-out wonderful. She’s truly a student of Jacob’s!
I am SO ready for the Richard episode, though. When he picked up those chains in the Black Rock, I was a-dyin’ for some flashback. Which leads to a question: we would likely need a flashback with Richard, yet that isn’t the format this season. How will a flash-sideways with Richard work in a way that will fill us in on him, and hopefully, his history?
I really don’t think we’re going to have a Richard flashsideways. In the flashforward season, we still had some flashbacks in appropriate episodes, and I think I remember reading in an interview somewhere that we shouldn’t necessarily expect the flashsideways for the whole season.
Ah, excellent! Must have missed that. Thanks, Paul!
hopefully we also get an MIB and widmore flashback
Yeah, not sure what kind of sideways Richard would have. If Jacob hadn’t touched him, he’d have died 150 years ago.
Now a flashback to the Black Rock–or even a scary dream–could be fun.
Richard will have a traditional, old school, flashback centric on March 23.
Richard was given his “gift” long before Detonating Jughead – so he’d still be unaging and unable to kill himself in the sideways world (if that’s even the pivotal event). If the island sank, would he be doomed to keep living in an underwater morgue? Hoping for a spontaneous “catch up on the aging” scene like from the 1930′s film Lost Horizon.
I just keep wondering with the season winding down when we’re going to start getting into real answers. With the few episodes left I’m getting worried they’re going to have to cram a lot of stuff into not a lot of time…. That being said, I’m with the majority, loved the episode, just getting nervous…
That’s been my fear too – but then I think back to how much they were able to reveal in “The Incident” and I start feeling a bit more optimistic.
Yeah…it would be a real shame to have episodes crammed full of answers wouldn’t it? Just kidding guys….can’t wait.
BSG made a very similar error. They crammed so many answers into the last couple episodes that it seemed awkward & contrived.
I think one thing that we need to realize is that they’re not going to be revealing the answers Sherlock Holmes Style. There won’t be a five minute scene where someone just starts listing off answers. The answers are going to be presented dramatically and that requires much more time and effort.
Was it me, or did anyone else not here the flash sound effect between each of the flash sideways….its as is they want us to know they are moving closer together
i know, hear and if
I heard it. You might’ve missed it cuz the Flash sounds are played in reverse this year. Nobody I’ve talked to has noticed it besides me, so maybe I’m crazy…NOT!
I’ve heard it too, just not sure if it was worth mentioning. It sounds like a flash sounds did in S5, almost like they’re saying the incident caused what your about to see.
While I do agree that this definitely was the best written and all around episode of the season, I did find one MAJOR flaw. If the flash sideways is supposed to take place in the timeline where the bomb went off, then wouldn’t Ben and his father have been blown to Kingdom Come? We know that the bomb completely sank the island, and when Jack & Crew go racing to the Swan site to detonate the bomb, Ben is still w/ the Others, and the last we see of his father Roger he shoots Sayid in Dharmaville. So unless Ben was reunited w/ Roger in the extremely small window between Roger shooting Sayid and bomb being detonated, they would still need to race to the sub to get off the island, which I’m pretty sure had already left when Dr. Chang ordered the evacuation. Does anyone else have any comments on this?
My guess is that what really sank the island was Radzinsky drilling into the pocket…
In the sideways timeline, Jacob never touched the losties… they never came to the island, thus never went back in time to 77 to detonate the bomb to save the island from sinking… Sayid never shot Ben, Ben never went to the temple, so when Chang ordered the evacuation, Ben left… And his father was ordered to leave too, since he’s all that Ben had…
In our normal timeline, it’s like Miles said in the S5 finale… the bomb was the incident… Whatever happened, happened… it kept the island from sinking by keeping the energy at bay long enough to finish the Swan station, where they set up the protocol to enter the code to keep keeping the energy at bay… Until Desmond forgot to push the button which brought the Losties down, and kept the cycle going…
i think you have the right idea, but there are still holes in this reasoning. Faraday was the one who convinced Chang to evacuate the island, but Faraday’s crew wouldn’t have come to the island. So did ben and roger leave the island for another reason? also we know from other character’s flashes that there lives are completely different before 1977 and the “incident”. there had to be some ripples in time that changed things before 1977.
Yeah, I thought about that too… but I was thinking that maybe Chang would have ordered the evacuation anyway once Radzinsky hit the pocket and cars and things started getting sucked down the pipe… but who knows really until they give us more info…
Chang ordered the evacuation because Daniel told him to though.
right that’s what i said.
Yes, at the same moment I posted the same thing.
I think that’s more a major HINT than a major flaw. For all we know Jughead was a dud and “The Incident” was never anything more than DHARMA breaching the magnetic pocket with their drill.
we don’t know the bomb killed every one on the island or sunk it. richard presumed the time travelers were dead seeing the bomb go off. at the very least it could have triggered a series of different events where say for example the linus’s left the island after jr got shot and a nuclar bomb went of. maybe a good time to reavalutate your life and give up the drink as a result ben was not on the island to deal with a chrisis that resulted at a later point in the island sinking. or a multitude of other possibilities.
No, Richard said “I watched them all die.” Christian’s orientation center also had Dharma 1978 recruits. So we still don’t know when the island sunk or why.
The incident caused Dr. Chang to lose his arm in the original timeline.
Even if Jughead wasn’t a dud, we don’t know how the explosion in the presence of the magnetic anomoly might change the results of the explosion. Don’t forget what Faraday said – the bomb would negate the magnetic energy. This also means that the magnetic energy would negate the nuclear blast. For all we know the side effect of Jughead going off is just an earthquake.
Perhaps the explosion caused the island to sink, but it happened over the course of a month rather than the conclusion we all are immediately jumping to….. that it happened within say…an hour. What if the island is sinking, but everyone at the barracks still has time to get off?
All year I’ve been dreading this would happen, Ben’s redemption: Ben Bad Bad Ben. The Darlton have not been hesitant to talk about their changes for the characters and the plot based on fan response – and admittedly their own responses – to Emerson’s performance.
Now, almost all my works have a redemption theme. I’m all for it. And while REDRUM is certainly a forgivable SIN, it still demands a steep price for restitution. I still believe Island-Ben will die. A sacrifice, I suspect. Or maybe just UnLocke being pissed at him.
I had assumed LA-Ben would still be evil, but with this episode I now place all my bets on where I believe Lost is going with the sideways(copyright) reality. And while I have been vocal about an alt-reality being a disappointment, I think it just might work.
Glad you’re seeing the light, Smitty.
Ben’s redemption was foreshadowed in season 5. I think that any of our characters might die, and die unredeemed, on the Island — the sideways timeline is there to ensure that they all get redeemed. I think that all of the main characters are being redeemed, which fits in with the overarching direction of the show.
Seeing the light? I abhor all the Ben-nuts out there making excusing for his psychotic murderous behavior. The character is evil.
I thought PURE evil. As a writer I would not have allowed him redemption.
BUT, I’m not the writer here. Still, The Darlton made it work. I admit that much.
And I am not God; who am I to say who is forgiven and who is not.
I still expect Island-Ben to give up the ghost.
“Pure evil”? He certainly wasn’t when a child, and he’s certainly not now. But, yes, he has been evil (though not “pure evil”) throughout the majority of the show, and, yes, some fans have unjustly excused his behavior over the years (not just now). On the other hand, there has been a smaller number looking forward to Ben *not* being redeemed, too.
I agree with you that Ben will probably die in the forthcoming Island war.
even as a child, ben was manipulative and “evil”. He stole his dad’s keys, torched a van, and started a major fire to break out the “hostile” Sayid. And all of this was done before the influence of “the others”on his life.
Smitty,
As much as I love Ben, I feel the need to point out that just because he has redeemed himself.. kinda… a little… this does not mean that he will STAY ‘redeemed’. I don’t think making one good decision erases all the bad things he’s done. In the interests of his character, it rocks my socks, but overall it’s possible that Ben will backslide. I imagine it’s hard to overcome a whole lifetime of thinking of the Island first.
As for Ben on the Sideways(copyright Smitty) world, I kinda liked seeing him able to be selfless for Alex.
(I do not think you can redeem yourself for murder. Ever. Ethics professors all over the world are suffering from massively twitching eyeballs as we speak… well, type.)
Supposedly REDRUM is the one unforgiveable sin, but I don’t that. Everything is forgiveable if nothing is irreversible. But it demands a heavy price.
And you’re right: One act does not earn redemption. That’s why I supposed that Ben Bad Bad Ben must die, but giving his life on the side of Good. He will continue to make good decisions: If not he will end up a pathetic loser like Locke, and I won’t mind seeing that either.
Thanks for the copyright acknowledgement: Fee waived!
If the bomb really did blow up the island in the late 70′s, then what happened to Jacob and Smokey? Both of them seem to be some sort or “God” type folk.
Notice Jacob bled like a stuck pig when Ben stabbed him, but Flocke (smokey) she NO blood when Sayid stabbed him.
Different types of “Gods” perhaps. It’s always the subtle things that stand out.
So was Linus still resurrected by the spa since it has been confirmed they were on the island? Of course they left, but Roger didn’t say “when” they left…
Again, Emmerson was AWESOME!
Well then why was Roger telling Ben that they “should of stayed on the island w/ the Dharma Initiative” if the island was blown sky high?
TIP TO THE WRITERS OF LOST: If you want to do an episode like this in season 6, then at some point in season 5, you have to show the audience that Ben & Roger did in fact get off the island and how for “Dr. Linus” to make any sense. It’s called a setup, and it’s a tool many writers use to pick up an existing plot point at a later time.
There are many possible explanations for this. Lots of things are different in the AR. No reason why AR Roger and Ben couldn’t have left the island long before it sank. In the OR Ben and Roger were still on the island at the time of the Incident. TIP TO THE WRITERS: Keep doing what you’re doing. Most of us can keep up.
Apparently not. So I’m the one who pays attention and catches the mistake, and I can’t keep up? Why is it you people just can’t beleive the writers made a mistake? Oh I forgot, most of you worship them and consider them god.
Of course the writers can and do make mistakes. But I don’t understand what mistake you are referring to? Your suggestion that they should’ve shown Roger & Ben leaving the island in S5 makes no sense. THAT Roger & Ben didn’t leave the island before the Incident.
But why should they have showed Ben and Roger leaving the island in S5 if the sideways world – as it seems likely by now – is more the consequence of Jacob never influencing anyone’s life than of Jughead’s detonation? As I see it, in the sideways past there was no bomb and what sunk the island was, in fact, an electro magnetic incident (more likely to sink/pull down a piece of land than an H bomb I guess… that would have just blown everything to pieces?). And the relationship between Roger and Ben doesn’t seem to have the slightest hint of angst, except for Roger’s regrets about Ben’s prospects in life. It’s not just that they have left the island at a certain point – these are different people because they lived different lives. That’s the whole point of the sideways orld.
*world (this keyboard hatesss me)
The writers most certainly make mistakes….this is just not one of them.
At this point we don’t know it’s a mistake. My guess, if they were in the sub when they left, they might not have been told the Island blew.
I’m still leaning towards SOMETHING ELSE has to happen to alter the Island timeline, and it’s open to not being in ’77.
What if Jacob instigated the death of Ben’s Mother. Now with a sideways reality of a world untouched by Jacob, Roger no longer resents Ben for killing his mother and Locke doesn’t resent his father for the appaling things he has done under Jacob’s influence.
I believe HANDSOME SMITTY is on the right track!
kaptan36:
They are showing what WOULD have happened at THIS POINT IN TIME, had the JUGHEAD BOMB changed things.
I kind of agree tho’ that MAYBE season 6 could have dealt with the “Other” reality, while a (nonexistent) season 7 dealt with tying up MOST answers.
I do trust the writers when they say that not ALL mysteries should have a DEFINITIVE answer.
Ben was never shot, because Sayid never came to the island, therefore ben never goes to the temple to be healed and leaves the island during the evacutation.
Then why is the island at the bottom of the ocean genius?
Probably because even in the sideways reality, Radzinsky was a dick who went on drilling on the wrong elecromagnetic spot.
I posted this above, maybe a possible answer
I was thinking the same thing, but some things are different from before Jacob began interfering with their lives. Like, it is safe to assume, that Anthony Cooper is not a kidney stealing a##hole conman in the sideways world, so his life had to be different from well before the 70′s.
My theory is, since 815 never crashed, Daniel, Sawyer, Locke, Juliet, Charlotte, and Miles never time traveled to the 50′s. So they never met Widmore, Hawking and Alpert and told them how to deal with the jughead bomb. The Others evacuated in the 50′s from the treat of the jughead, which was leaking radiation the whole time. This change in the past caused a butterfly effect and changed things for the future.
The Dharma Initative came to the island and there were no hostiles and had free run of the island, but the bomb that the others abandoned sunk the island by blowing on its own, or the island sunk due to The Dharma Initiatives experiments.
Dharmadave, that makes a lot of sense, thanks for sharing!
It’s not that these characters never did what they did… It’s that this event CAUSED a divergence of REALITIES.
Things happened the SAME WAY in one reality, and ENDED UP differently in ANOTHER.
Cuse and Lindeloff have said that each reality is NO MORE OR LESS “real” than the OTHER.
That is one of the questions that has not been answered yet, but when the answer does finally come, i’ll make sure to explain it to you, Kaptan36.
I just watched it, all i have to say is WOW! Ben is on his way to redemption. His flash sideways was a test at his morality so was his on island choice on going with Flocke. Ben himself is not a candidate but I can see his passion for the island leading to the replacement for Richard giving a happy ending to them both.
With this kind of writing, I’m really hoping they can redeem a Katecentric episode before the end, cause after the past few I’ve seen they truly are the worst, I mean hit the skip button on the remote bad.
I’m beginning to feel very strongly that the sideways flashes are actually the results of which side you choose to be on in the war. Notice that as of today…Jack, Hurley, and Ben all seem to be living as far better versions of themselves, whereas Kate, Sayid, and the Kwons seem to be in very similar, if not worse circumstances than before.
Obviously without seeing a great deal of Claire, Sawyer, Sun, and Jin off island it will be hard to pull this together, but it COULD possibly be a case of the “end game” on island having a very positive effect on the lives of the “winners” or at least those who sided with Jacob’s team.
I’m still trying to get my head round how Ben and Roger Workman were off the island in the flash-sideways, but apart from that, ’twas a really good episode. People keep saying these flash-sideways are a waste of time, but I loved seeing Ben, Locke and Arzt hanging out in the staffroom. XD
Also, loved seeing the Black Rock again.
Likely because the decided to leave before the incident happened. From what I’ve seen, the biggest difference between the timelines in the elimination of Daddy Issues (with the exception of Jack). Roger says that “this isnt the life I wanted for you Ben”, leading us to believe that he actually cared about his kid (likely even when they were on the island).
The cause isn’t the incident. It was Sayid shooting Ben. That event caused Roger to treat his son differently. He left the island with Ben and did a better job raising him as a result.
ben might have been shot in the flash sideways world, but it wasn’t sayid that shot him because in the flash sideways, Sayid never came to the island. It was probably some other factor ( like Roger Linus actually leaving the island because he was pissed about his job assignment, instead of staying.)
Awesome episode – loved when Doc Artz waved at Locke in the staff room and called him “the Substitute,” loved the Ben and Roger scene (which proves that the Island was not destroyed by an atomic bomb or how would they have chosen to leave rather than been evacuated) Why couldn’t Flocke just have killed Illiana to help Ben escape? Is she untouchable?
Some things are different from before Jacob began interfering with their lives. Like, it is safe to assume, that Anthony Cooper is not a kidney stealing a##hole conman in the sideways world, so his life had to be different from well before the 70′s.
My theory is, since 815 never crashed, Daniel, Sawyer, Locke, Juliet, Charlotte, and Miles never time traveled to the 50′s. So they never met Widmore, Hawking and Alpert and told them how to deal with the jughead bomb. The Others evacuated in the 50′s from the threat of the jughead, which was leaking radiation the whole time. This change in the past caused a butterfly effect and changed things for the future.
The Dharma Initative came to the island and there were no hostiles and had free run of the island, but the bomb that the others abandoned sunk the island by blowing on its own, or the island sunk due to The Dharma Initiatives experiments.
No.
The “time divergence” is ONLY applicable to this story as of the moment of the JUGHEAD DETONATION.
In ANY case of ANY event EVER realized, you can promote a different/divergent reality.
There can be billions times billions of billions of different “realities”, based on the MOST INSIGNIFICANT of actions. Meaning… There COULD BE billions of different outcomes, based on on when I decided to scoop my cat’s litter box. Or there could be many OTHER realities branching off of our LOST character’s lives based on weather or not Jack decided to kiss Kate.
The only outcome that matters in THIS story, is what MAY OR MAY NOT have happened when Juliet detonated the bomb.
The ONLY context that divergent realities matter in THIS story is the point where JUGHEAD was detonated. We are shown what would happen if JUGHEAD didn’t work… AND what would happen if JUGHEAD did work.
What Farday said was:
It takes something drastic and catastrophic to CHANGE any past/future.
It’s THIS EVENT that the writers are showing us the TWO DIFFERENT OUTCOMES OF.
For all we know, there are an unknown number of realities, existing in a place we know NOTHING about… and “we” are going about our day in these “other realities” just as we are in this one.
What if… what we’ve been seeing in the flash sideways is the lives that jacob viewed through his lighthouse to help him decide who would be a candidate, and /or who he would simply draw to the island. I bet in the Jacob/ MIB episode coming up, we will see a flashback of Jacob viewing one of these flash sideways in his lighthouse. Plausible?
I like this, Plausible indeed.
Hey, Doc? Just a small request: the poll you use goes from ‘Good’ to ‘Best Episode Ever’ it could really use a ‘Great’ in between, or somesuch. I feel I’ve underrated it at ‘Good’ as a result because it was better than good, but not totally spectacular.
Theres an “above average” option too.
‘Above Average’ is lesser than ‘Good’ last time I checked.
Youre right nick, but the way they have it listed( from worst to great) it looks like above average is better than good. I would think good is above average and above average is good. there needs to be a new ranking system.
6-worst ever
5-poor
4-average
3-good
2-excellent
1-best ever
Who’s with me?
Sounds better to me.
yep, totally
Yep me too, I rated it best ever, but to be honest it isn’t but above average just sounded rude because it was way better than that.
I loved him playing Dr. Linus, but seriously. I was tearing up when he was speaking to Illana, he absolutely NAILED it. Awesome actor, I was in awe, he was doing the best work I’ve seen on TV and I PRAY he gets the awards he deserves.
Once again, I feel compelled to ask who the lone douche is that voted this worst episode ever? Reveal yourself and please explain!
sorry for name calling. I got a little emotional.
That was me.
HA!
Did anyone notice the STRONG water reference? The bottle they focused on when Ben changes his dads O2 , when with Alex he says “a sea of information” , at the beach “backs to the water”, the bottle of water in the tent from Flight 815?????
H2OMG
Sorry !!I ment Ox bottle
o2 is right.
Wow, there are so many things to wrap your mind around…
So, the question is NOT… what would happen if the island blew up in ’77?
it is… what would happen if there is no button to push? The island(2) was not destroyed, the magnetic anomally was only neutralized. Even with the underwater flyover, there was no sign of nuclear destruction. And why does the island(2) being underwater make me thing of the black rock?
Is this alternate reality the true reality? Is the island now operating in a bubble of time somewhere in this new reality. Is the Widmore that is approaching the island Widmore(1) or Widmore(2)? Am I seriously giving numbers to characters to keep track of what reality they are in?
And, how does duplicating the bunny rabbit in the Orchid orientation video play into this? After all, it dealt with 1. duplication and 2. time travel.
Speaking of rabbits, I believe I am chasing one now…
thats an interesting idea, is the island opperating in a bubble within a wider reality. our characters may be alive on and off the island. if syiad left the island would he go to a world where his wife is dead or married to his brother.
Maybe the references to water are like Baptism or soul cleansing. That would make the most sense to me.
More fuel to grind on…….
1.we’ve been told by the Darlton….someone other than Miles and Hurley can see the dead. Is the boy Sawyer saw dead? Who else dead will Sawyer see?
2.Flocke said he was a man once. What brought him to the island, did Jacob change him to what he is now? That would certainly create long lived hostility.
3.Flumfletta mentioned water…one of the hints given about the eending recently was THINK WATER, LOTS OF WATER. which leads one to think the island underwater shot was a major instance of foreshadowing the end.
4.If I’m reading a majority of posts correctly, there is an assumption the bomb detonated in 1977 left them in 1977. So did the plane go back to 77 or did they come forward in time? Haven’t taken much time to ponder that one.
I’ll add my voice to the overwhelming chorus of voices who loved the episode and say that the episode was awesome. As Doc said; Emerson was killing it. I consider Dr. Linus to be a continuation of The Substitutes and my second favorite after The Substitute.
The episodes compliment each other well and of course, anytime Emerson or O’Quinn are on screen together or separately the level of awesomeness increase by a hundred fold. The sideways world of Locke and Dr. Linus is one which I and many others are heavily invested. These two guys are soul mates in a strange way-like to large planetary bodies drawn to each others gravity.
I was prepared to be disgruntled if the writers gave Ben a free pass but the beginning of his redemption seems to work, if it is legitimate, which I believe it is. Ben still has a lot of make up for and none of us, especially Ben, should forget that.
The one thing I didn’t like and admittedly it is a minor complaint, was the slow motion ending but I have always disliked those since season one. But because this season is mirroring season one fairly closely it would makes sense to include them but I still think they are a bit cheesy.
Does anyone else think there may be someone higher in the chain of command than Jacob and MIB?
Maybe they were propositioned like Dogen (given a job by Jacob in exchange for his Son’s survival).
Ever since We have seen the young boy in the forest, it makes me think there has to be some higher power, watching over the “rules” and regulating the game/island.
WOW!! Lots of praise.
Although it was a good episode, I thought it was by far the WEAKEST of all the TOO FEW “Ben-Centric” episodes.
Still awesome, tho’.
Anyone find it funny that the Island Ben was a masterful chef, but the Sideways Ben couldnt cook a microwave meal without burning himself?
LOL!
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