Open Disccusion: Lost's rushed return?

It did seem choppy to me but I think that's just the nature of the flash forwards. Something about going from the island to the real world to tell a backstory is always going to be smoother than jumping from the island to the real world to tell a future part of the story. I'm hoping that eventually the flash forwards will taper off the same way the flash backs did and we'll get back to mostly island and island flash backs/forwards. But we'll have to wait and see. As doc always says, the worst episode of lost is still often the best thing on TV.

I think it's only a matter of time before we "meet in the middle". I also kind of wonder if the Orchid is going to render the "flashes" obsolete. That is, one or more of our heroes jumping around in time and space seeing the past, seeing the future. I think that would be focusing a bit more on the sci-fi than we are used to on Lost, but I can't think of another way to reconcile the cryptic statements of the producers.

Yes, the last episode was pretty choppy, and I did feel maybe a nice episode of Sayid reconvening with Nadia would have been swell, seen more about how she was killed (a future flashforward/flashback perhaps?).

But again, I am sure the Lost authorities know what they are doing, lol, but again, they have had to cutback on certain things. I guess it is just a case of deciding what is missable.

I love the new pacing of Lost. It took me a few episodes to get into it, but I think it provides a lot more the tension and suspense that was starting to fade in season 3. Speaking of season 3 (although I love all things Lost, no matter what) the flashbacks were getting a tad stale. "Enter 77" and "I Do" gave a little more insight into a character's history before the Island but revealed very little about their personality that we didn't know already. "Stranger in a Strange Land" or even "Tricia Tanaka is Dead" (two of the worst Lost ep.'s ever in my humble opinion) could also be described as more filler then actual fodder. Some of my fellow Lost-afiles think they have lose some characterization with the new fast pace, but I welcome it. After 3 seasons, we know enough about our beloved planies and they're inner workings, they practically feel like family. It's time now to tell the rest of the story and I think the writer's recognize that.

While obviously light on mythology, I thought it was great to see an episode that spent time to visit characters' relationships. I saw it as the solid ground used to launch the final "act" of the season.

Interesting topic. For me, the most compelling aspect of LOST is the choices that are made in storytelling - by this I mean the way the writers/directors choose to show us the elements of plot, character and setting. Beginning with the first episode of Season 1, the types of edits, length of scenes, camera angles, etc. have changed constantly - obviously varying with the intent to reflect different meanings in the various flashbacks/forwards, island/off-island events. We who follow the show so intently are focused on these changes, sifting through the latest for every shred of evidence to support/contradict our own and others' theories about the mysteries of the show and where it is leading us.
At some points in the show so far, die-hard fans have complained about the show getting "bogged down" in certain character stories or plot elements and then cheered what they felt was a return to the type of storytelling they most desired. Lost in this (pun intended) is the heightened sense of appreciation we have for the show BECAUSE of these contrasts. On a stand-alone basis, "Something Nice Back Home" pales by comparison with "The Shape of Things to Come", just as "Meet Kevin Johnson" suffers considerably when juxtaposed with "The Constant". One of the things I've learned from returning to earlier episodes a second time is how much more I appreciate the storytelling in those episodes now that I can contrast it with the knowledge I've gained of the characters and the story since I first viewed them.
For me, the show unfolds much like some of my favorite music. One song on a CD or in an artist's repertoire may grab me more than another; the more that I hear, the better I can appreciate what the artist was trying to accomplish with each song, and the better I understand why the way this artist approaches songwriting and/or performance appeals to me. The writers of LOST have played the audience like a fiddle (*sound of analogy stretching*) over 3-plus seasons now and both our raves and criticisms of the show are more sophisticated as a result. Given that the mythos of the show has unfolded on multiple media types (broadcast/DVR/DVD/blogs/books) over this time, it is amazing to me that the body of work holds up so strongly under such intense review.
I feel that we will look back on even those shows that initially seemed substandard and more fully appreciate the choices that were made in the storytelling arc. Next episode please!

Sometimes I think the show's producing team cannot win. Many times before this season began, I would hear complaints about Lost being too slow overall, that the mythology was taking too long to unearth. Now the show has an end date and you could easily feel the pace pick up in Season 4. Various comments have been posted (in other blogs), that Lost is going too fast and that this semi-frenetic pace is doing the show in. I think this serves as a great example of how you can't please everybody. Personally, I see the pacing difference as an evolution of the show and as long as the overall story remains strong; I will remain a satisfied viewer.

Dale, I agree with everything you said ... except I love "Tricia Tanaka is Dead." Hurley getting over his bad luck fixation, Charlie getting out from the cloud he'd been living under with Desmond's prediction, getting the DHARMA van running and bringing the dog along ... and Shambala. That episode was a breath of fresh air in season three, IMHO.

yeah i agree. tricia tanaka is dead was an awesome episode. cant understand why people seem to hate it at all. something nice back home was a good episode too, much better than eggtown, the other woman, ji yeon and meet kevin johnson even if it was a jack episode (they seem to make everyone groan when they find out its a jack episode)

can you get a different captcha thing its taken me about 20 attempts so far, or at least an option to refresh it?

make it about 40 attempts.

Isn't this exactly what we should expect because of the strike condensing the season? I think considering that challenge it is flowing VERY well.

In this whole Lost saga we are hitting the climatic part of the story which will naturally cause the pace to speed up. I think it adds to the tension and unsurity of what is going to happen next and the choppiness keepes us as viewers on our toes. These episodes are not meant to be refreshing, but to feel the full weight of what is happening in the story.

In my opinion, The first 3 Seasons were crafting the characters like puppets and setting the stage, and now it's time for the show. We know everything about these people. Now we see where they go, the choices they are faced with. This is a turning point in the show, things are colliding. You're getting your character development, just not as focused as it once was; now it's more simultaneous.

Wow, 12 comments on my first post. Nice! Thanks, guys.

Personally, I like the new Lost. I like the fast pace, the reveals are coming at a good clip, and as Dan said, simultaneously we're getting character development. We're reaching the fever-pitch here; but with two seasons to go, one wonders if they can maintain it.

At the same time, we ARE at the end of this season, which should naturally speed up anyway. I figure we'll get a nice leisurely break at the beginning of next season before they kick things into high gear again.

I think the big reason why the pace of the show has picked up so much over the length of season 4 is because the length of the season has shortened so much. In seasons 1-3 there were 23 to 24 episodes per season. With this many, there will naturally be some more "filler" type, character driven episodes. As many of you have said above, these are important in setting up the characters to the point where we feel like we know them and understand what they are going through and why the make the decisions they do. However, by this season, I feel it's safe to say that we all know the characters pretty well and the detailed character episodes aren't as necessary any more. With that being said, there are only 14 episodes being produced this season, and in order to tell the same amount of mythology, there will obviously be a lot less "filler" episodes because (1)they are no longer AS necessary, and (2)because they need the majority of the episodes to tell mythology.

That being said, I love the new pace of the show. Even in the first 3 seasons, although I realized the character episdoes were necessary, I always wanted a healthy dose of mythology. I think the new season has a great balance of giving you crazy mind boggling episodes like the The Constant and The Shape of Things to Come but following them with a chance to catch your breath with some more character driven episodes like Meet Kevin Johnson and Something Nice Back Home. However, my brain is ready for some CABIN FEVER!!

I think the pacing is good but sloppy. I like the faster pace nut at times I like the slower pace only so that I can really sink into the story. I guess it depends on my mood, just as long as it is done neatly.

You know... Lost fans are the most crticical fans i've ever seen... soemtimes it's embarassing to read some of the things that are written about our favorite show by it's biggest fans.

The momentum of the show didn't just "suddenly" get faster this season. It's the end of the season... and the episodes always get more intense at the end of the season.

Last year everyone complained that things were moving too slowly, or there was too much filler.

This season they cut the season short so they could cut out all the filler... not only that but after the strike they're making even less episodes this season and they had to fit in all the most important bits of the story for this season.

The last episode was actually one of my favorite episodes of all time.

It's time for lost fans to sit back... stop complaining... and enjoy the show that they supposedly love.

I love that the show is constantly changing and evolving... that every episode isn't the same old same old. Some episodes are full of mystery and mythos... some are character driven, dramatic and leave you laughing, crying or both.

I love the direction the show is heading. The first three seasons had tons of filler in them for me; I'm thinking of ghastly (for me) subplots like James and the loud frog that Hugo killed. Yes, it made a slight point, but did it move the story forward? No. I'm not one that needs to see a detailed scene to work something out. For example, just by seeing what happened to Minkowski, we now have a good idea what The Sickness was and why Danielle slaughtered her research team. Would it be cool to see Danielle slaughter them in a flashback? Sure! :-) ;-) but it's *not needed to move the story along*.

I don't think of the seasons having less episodes to tell the story; it's simply going to be 48 episodes done 3 blocks of 16 (they'll get to make up the two lost hours at some point) instead of the usual seasons of 24. All that effects is mid-season cliffhanger and finale but YES! we get more of them now. :-)

I have to say, I don't like the flashforwards at all. One of the greatest things about the show was that every character was a potential death, every episode. The whole "Jack has his appendix removed" thing reminded me of those lame incidents on the original Star Trek where Kirk, Bones and Spock would be in peril on some planet: it was bogus tension, because you knew they were going to survive. I wish instead that they would have instead just dropped the flashbacks entirely after season 3 and just told the story in a linear fashion going forward. We'd still find out how the Oceanic 6 got off the Island, who stayed behind, that Ben was battling Widmore etc. but just in a traditional story telling way. Of course, the reason they do 'backs is to shine a light on what is happening with a character by showing what brought them to that point.

As for the fans, I'm sick of 'em as a group. What a pissy, demanding, arrogant group we are! As mentioned, nothing's ever good enough: "Wah! The show is too complicated!" "Wah, I figured that out 12 episodes ago, tell me what Smokey is!" "Wah! How come there's not whole episodes devoted to Charlie and Claire sitting on the beach with perfect hair and makeup talking about nothing at all, while the waves crash on the beach?" And the Jater and Skater shipper wars are totally embarrassing, it's like being in freaking high school again. I gave up during the first season putting what I wanted ahead of what I was being told. I now figure that if something is important, they'll get to it; if not, we'll never hear about it again. The amount of energy spent in fandom on whether, say, Danielle was dead, was unreal. She was shot just like Karl was, she was dead as earth. I'm so happy they had that scene with Miles just so that lame thing wouldn't be dragged out even more.

@Sevon

Welcome, fellow "DocArzt: The Next Generation"-er. ;-)

While I think you do have a point with the pace of Lost being rather breathless so far after the strike-hiatus, I think that's a pretty natural consequence of the writers working off the assumption that they had only 5 hours to tell 8 hours worth of story (remember that the 6th hour was a recent development!). Some balls they had in the air were going to have to be dropped (or at least pocketed). But that's OK...I very much like breakneck-speed "Lost" like "The Constant" and "The Shape of Things to Come". (I also like some of the more meditative episodes like "Something Nice Back Home", "Ji Yeon", and S.3's "Tricia Tanaka Is Dead"...sorry, Dale, gotta go with Ed Holden on that one!)

I also think you're dead-on about "meeting in the middle". I have a sneaking suspicion that the Frozen Donkey Wheel is precisely that, in fact. S.5 will see the "present", both on- and off-Island be moved to after the events of Jack's FF in "Through the Looking Glass", with intervening on-Island story for those left behind being dribbled out in New, Improved Flashbacks™, and the situation on the Island being markedly different than how the O6 left it.


@Troy

Actually, I think people only really had issues with the pacing and too-narrow focus of the initial 6-episode "pod" of S.3. Once we hit "Not in Portland", the ride began, with only occasional moments to catch our breath (though the less said about "Stranger in a Strange Land" the better...terrible episode to name for an excellent book!). And once you hit "The Brig", it's white-knuckle city from there on in.

@Henry Holland

Oh, I dunno...no show is ever perfect, no matter how good it may be, nor is it going to appeal to everyone equally. The writers and producers of Lost have succeeded admirably in the alchemical marrying of elements that appeal to 'shipper-type fans and mythology-crazed ex-X-Files geeks. But it's only natural that, the more they cater to one group, the more the other complains, until the pendulum swings the other direction. I don't think it's ever a bad thing for people to honestly critique the show. If we hadn't complained, we might still have Nikki & Paulo wasting our time, for example.

But we keep watching because we love it, and as has been said by Doc and many others, the worst Lost os better than most other shows on their best day. And, praise be for a show varied enough that, if an episode is a total clunker to you personally, the next one might be another "The Constant". You just never know.

But when all's said and done, Lost is going to inhabit the rarified air of shows still worth studying years, maybe decades from now, joining genius like Buffy, Babylon 5, The Prisoner, (early) X-Files, and so on, arguably being the best of them all. Keep that in mind, and petty episode-to-episode complaints won't get under your skin as much. ;-)

The majesty that is LOST is due in large part to the near-flawless character development that occurred duing the first three seasons, the compelling storytelling, building mythology, impecable writing, sensitive direction, never-before-seen-on-television production values and sensational acting. Above all we are heavily invested in the characters. The writing and acting are so rich that we feel as if we know each of these individuals. And, as in life, some we like, some we don't.

While I personally love the faster pace of Season 4, I find that I am so aware that the story is racing through the season (into another torturous 8-month hiatus) and toward its conclusion, that I feel cheated when the characters I care least about are focused on. Again, I know that different people are invested in different characters and different aspects of the story and they are trying to apease everyone.

Personally, I find the characters of Jack and Kate to be the least interesting and most poorly written in the story. This is unfortunate because the writers/producers seem determined to continue forcing them on us as the male and female leads. Sorry Darlton and Jack and Kate fans, but I just don't see it. A perfect example of my frustration is the fact that ONLY Matthew Fox can be nominated for an acting award in the lead actor category forcing Michael Emerson to compete in the Supporting category against Terry O'Quinn. Give me a break, Emerson is the lead actor on LOST. But I guess Fox's contract designates him as the lead actor. And I don't have anything against Fox or Evie. I think they are both much better actors than they are able to show with the characters the writers have developed for them.

Give me more screen time for Desmond, Penny, Locke, Hurley, Ben, Sawyer, Claire, Juliet, Sayid, Jin, Sun, Bernard, Rose, Richard, Miles, Daniel, Frank, and even Vincent...and less Jack and Kate and I'll be much happier. I'm sure there are huge Jack and Kate fans out there who feel just the opposite. It's just the nature of the wonderful beast that LOST has become. I think we all feel that we are cheated when whatever character we are not invested in is featured.

Okay, end of off-topic rant. Sorry.

Back to the topic> I love the faster pace of season 4. And for what it's worth, add me to the "loved Tricia Tanica" camp.

Troy, I agree completely.

Things are definitely moving a bit faster than in seasons 1 and 2 and most of season 3. They take episodes every now and then to stop and let us catch our breaths so I'm fine with it.

As much as I loved "The Shape of Things To Come", if all of them were that intense I wouldn't live to see the finale.

If we hadn't complained, we might still have Nikki & Paulo wasting our time, for example

I'm sorry, I never got the Nikki & Paolo hate. To *me* at lot of it was shipper bullshit, "OMG! OMG! there's going to be less screen-time for Jack yelling at Kate / Sawyer and Kate snarking at each other! / Dom and Eimile having zero chemistry together!" type things. It was a dumb idea to introduce two characters who were going to be regulars in to the beach camp, because we'd had 2+ seasons of seeing the same people walk around in the background carry sticks, it was obvious they were planted there. I think a lot of people were turned off by the way they were introduced, the whole "Hey, what about us?" thing; there's a scene that was cut, apparently, of them getting caught having sex in one of the regular character's tent that might have been better to use.

But we keep watching because we love it, and as has been said by Doc and many others, the worst Lost os better than most other shows on their best day. And, praise be for a show varied enough that, if an episode is a total clunker to you personally, the next one might be another "The Constant". You just never know.

Sure, totally agree with that. :-) I mean, I think there's some major flaws with the show, but overall, it kicks my ass week in and week out. I liked the flashback in Tricia Tanaka is Dead, especially the touch about Hugo eating to excess as a coping mechanism of his dad leaving and I *LOVED* the whole "Johnny ran off with Starla" bit, but I hated the on-Island scenes, just was counting the seconds until they were over. Loved Expose, so there's no accounting for taste, is there? :-)

I've never watched the show live, not once, not even the pilot, it's always on my DVR. I'll watch every frame the first time through, but then I'll download the BitTorrent, and using Audacity, edit out the bits I don't care about, then slap the stuff that remains on to a blank DVD and that's what I'll watch over and over and over and.... (see: Young Ben's scene with Richard in the jungle, Ben's "This is where *I* came from John" scene in TMBTC, Hugo and Charlie's "I am dead, but I'm also here" scene in TBOTE etc.) There's large chunks of this show I've seen only once, some I've seen 200 times.

To be honest, I was hoping they'd be really brave and have The Others slaughter all the beach camp people except John at the end of season 2 and have a whole next cast of characters, i.e. The Others, be the focus for the rest of the series, but alas. "We're not killers, James". While Ben and John are my favorites by far, I like the other characters that are still around and the ones that have passed through (esp. Libby); I *hated* Shannon though, like x 1000 what people thought of Nikki and Paolo and I was dancing around my apartment when Ana Lucia whacked her. OK, I was drunk, but still! I didn't freak out like some do when their favorite(s) fade in to the background a bit, like with Ben and Something Nice Back Home, because I know that's how the show works for the main characters: have major time in an episode and fade out the next week.

They take episodes every now and then to stop and let us catch our breaths so I'm fine with it. As much as I loved "The Shape of Things To Come", if all of them were that intense I wouldn't live to see the finale.

Hahahaha, I agree, I appreciate the way they pace the show too. :-) My co-workers said to me on the Monday after "TSOTTC" "Wow, we thought you were going to call in sick so you could watch Ben for the 400th time".

I think the problem is that the first 3 three seasons especially Season 2 and the first half of Season 3 was too slow. IMO the character stories were depleted back in Season 1. For me Jack and Locke are the lead characters and I like them but I don't like how repetetive their stories have been. Kate character as a female lead is a joke. She could be better in a show like... Baywatch... Ben is something made up later in the story. As much as I love Michael Emerson, I don't like the fact that one person took over the whole Lost world. I just can't take the stupidness level the characters show for nearly 3 seasons against a manipulative character. Every lostie character who has a lot of screen time suck in that respect. They get smart only when the writers let them according to their contrived storyline.

Lost's problem is bad planning. There is no stable pacing since the beginning. In general it is too slow, then they get backlash so they gear up... Because their first goal was stretching the show while not giving away much for 3 seasons. Now the pace the good (not every episode, Eggtown, TOW was the worst episodes of the season) but since the first 3 seasons was soooooo slow it feels rushed. Time spent on storylines is, unfortunately, NOT directly related with their importance. They spent too much on pointless stories in slow pace, now in answer stage the pace is fast. That's the problem. NO BALANCE.

Henry Holland:
"I'm sorry, I never got the Nikki & Paolo hate..."

Me neither. Honestly, I would like to have seen what the writers had in store for them. I'm sure their story will become another character's though.

I think it's premature to make a generalization about post-strike episodes when we've only seen two. And 409 was absolutely amazing, tons of things in there but it didn't seem rushed at all. 410 wasn't the best episode, but Jack centric ones (and Kate flashback/forwards) tend to be weaker than most.

The problem with Nikki and Paulo is that we had two seasons of not seeing these characters, then all of a sudden they just appear out of nowhere and are completely obnoxious and in your face. It was just handled really poorly - completely distracting and the audience didn't buy that these two were there all along. They can bring in characters from the background, but they need to handle it well.

Even the producers admit they botched Nikki and Paulo, they weren't happy with how it turned out.

milo, I hear what you're saying, but the character Arzt was introduced in an equally "onboxious" and "in-your-face" manner, and most of us love the guy.

If the only difference between the two is length of time (one year vs. two) then that's not really giving Pikki a fair chance from the start.