Comments on: Marc Oromaner’s Lost In Myth: “The Incident”—Having Faith in Jacob and LOST http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/ Everything Lost found here. Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:21:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Alexandra http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-51897 Alexandra Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:18:10 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-51897 Do you think flight number 316 has anything to do with Genesis 3:16: To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." I think this is related to fertility God and this theme... Would like to hear your opinions. Do you think flight number 316 has anything to do with Genesis 3:16:
To the woman he said,
“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

I think this is related to fertility God and this theme… Would like to hear your opinions.

]]> By: CrimSon http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-39310 CrimSon Wed, 20 May 2009 12:57:45 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-39310 I was addressing Henry Holland. But Marc, I enjoy your posts, too. I was addressing Henry Holland. But Marc, I enjoy your posts, too.

]]> By: CrimSon http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-39309 CrimSon Wed, 20 May 2009 12:40:03 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-39309 I enjoy Lost simply because it's more intricate than any other drama on the otherwise wasteland of TV. Television -- especially reality television -- is ordinarily an insult to the intelligence. Lost, at least, tries to go beyond the usual infantile approach so prevalent in just about everything else. (And a bonus: It doesn't "feel" like it's constantly trying to be a soapbox for a current political position, names like John Locke and Edmund Burke notwithstanding.) Having said all this, I completely agree with your post. I enjoy Lost simply because it’s more intricate than any other drama on the otherwise wasteland of TV. Television — especially reality television — is ordinarily an insult to the intelligence. Lost, at least, tries to go beyond the usual infantile approach so prevalent in just about everything else. (And a bonus: It doesn’t “feel” like it’s constantly trying to be a soapbox for a current political position, names like John Locke and Edmund Burke notwithstanding.)

Having said all this, I completely agree with your post.

]]> By: Jim http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-39238 Jim Wed, 20 May 2009 00:55:25 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-39238 What I'm trying to say is that Juliet never used the power of choice to write her own life story. Especially on the most fateful day of her life, she succumbed to her unhappy destiny at every step. In fact, I believe every LOST death has so far met that criteria. The only case one can make for Michael and Charlie, both morally weak and prone to make the wrong decision at every turn, is that their deaths find redemption as a sacrifice for others' potential success. Nikki and Paulo circled each other in a lustful, greedy death trap. Locke died as he lived; a pigeon to be used. As the characters fall away, we're still hoping for some small group to overcome the odds and break free of their pasts and meet their potential:) What I’m trying to say is that Juliet never used the power of choice to write her own life story. Especially on the most fateful day of her life, she succumbed to her unhappy destiny at every step. In fact, I believe every LOST death has so far met that criteria. The only case one can make for Michael and Charlie, both morally weak and prone to make the wrong decision at every turn, is that their deaths find redemption as a sacrifice for others’ potential success. Nikki and Paulo circled each other in a lustful, greedy death trap. Locke died as he lived; a pigeon to be used. As the characters fall away, we’re still hoping for some small group to overcome the odds and break free of their pasts and meet their potential:)

]]> By: Jim http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-39234 Jim Wed, 20 May 2009 00:09:11 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-39234 It's funny you saw Juliet's story exactly the opposite of me. I viewed Juliet's story as a complete capitulation to her fate, dying (if she is dead) unfulfilled and unredeemed. Her story or fate was sealed early by her parents, who told her that even amidst planning and love, you can't have what you want in the long run. Her own divorce buttressed it. Even her career advancement came with a guilty conscience and strange foreboding. I wonder if it was coincidence that she took to stealing illicit moments of happiness with a married man, where there was no hope of long term happiness. Or, that her therapist acted as both real and figurative conscience even about that. We could go on with her story, but you get the idea. Then, on the last day of her life, after delaying her freedom from the island for three years, she gives it up again almost immediately, now becoming a truly tragic figure as she begins actively working towards her terrible fate and throwing her future happiness away. Staying true to her destiny, she then throws her lover away also, all because of a single look. To outward appearance, the decisions looked hypocritical. To her, they were a consistent admission that she knew her fate. She would never fight it. She was doomed to die alone in the dark, broken, bleeding, and actively beating forever on a bomb that deny her everything she ever dreamed for. That's not redemption. That's complete failure. I hope she's alive, or we witnessed one of the most stirring tales of active failure by an outwardly strong and beautiful woman that TV as ever seen. It’s funny you saw Juliet’s story exactly the opposite of me. I viewed Juliet’s story as a complete capitulation to her fate, dying (if she is dead) unfulfilled and unredeemed.

Her story or fate was sealed early by her parents, who told her that even amidst planning and love, you can’t have what you want in the long run. Her own divorce buttressed it. Even her career advancement came with a guilty conscience and strange foreboding. I wonder if it was coincidence that she took to stealing illicit moments of happiness with a married man, where there was no hope of long term happiness. Or, that her therapist acted as both real and figurative conscience even about that.

We could go on with her story, but you get the idea. Then, on the last day of her life, after delaying her freedom from the island for three years, she gives it up again almost immediately, now becoming a truly tragic figure as she begins actively working towards her terrible fate and throwing her future happiness away. Staying true to her destiny, she then throws her lover away also, all because of a single look. To outward appearance, the decisions looked hypocritical. To her, they were a consistent admission that she knew her fate. She would never fight it. She was doomed to die alone in the dark, broken, bleeding, and actively beating forever on a bomb that deny her everything she ever dreamed for.

That’s not redemption. That’s complete failure. I hope she’s alive, or we witnessed one of the most stirring tales of active failure by an outwardly strong and beautiful woman that TV as ever seen.

]]> By: Marc Oromaner http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-39193 Marc Oromaner Tue, 19 May 2009 20:18:43 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-39193 You make some good points. Many of what has frustrated you has frustrated me as well. But it's a kind of suspenseful frustration for me that's part of the enjoyment of watching the show. However, if the final reveal doesn't answer these questions, then like you, I will also feel like we've been bamboozled! I don't think they're going to do that to us though, and even if they do, I'm still glad I watched the show. I just won't see it as being as brilliant as I do now. I also don't think that the show will end up being about Jacob and "Esau" any more than Trading Places ended up being about Randolph and Mortimer Duke. Yes, they were key players to the plot, but not the main focus of the story. They initiated it, but our emotional connections were with Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd 's characters. You make some good points. Many of what has frustrated you has frustrated me as well. But it’s a kind of suspenseful frustration for me that’s part of the enjoyment of watching the show. However, if the final reveal doesn’t answer these questions, then like you, I will also feel like we’ve been bamboozled! I don’t think they’re going to do that to us though, and even if they do, I’m still glad I watched the show. I just won’t see it as being as brilliant as I do now.

I also don’t think that the show will end up being about Jacob and “Esau” any more than Trading Places ended up being about Randolph and Mortimer Duke. Yes, they were key players to the plot, but not the main focus of the story. They initiated it, but our emotional connections were with Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd ’s characters.

]]> By: Michael (not Michel) http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-39171 Michael (not Michel) Tue, 19 May 2009 17:26:42 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-39171 whythankyou :) now we have to wait and see though. whythankyou :) now we have to wait and see though.

]]> By: Andrew http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-39084 Andrew Tue, 19 May 2009 04:37:56 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-39084 I didn't read all the comments posted so I hope nobody else said this. Mark Pellegrino as Jacob reminded me of Cary Elwes in The Princess Bride. It's funny to me then that his tapestry said “May the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires" - in other words, "As you wish". Ahhh... only funny to me. [Side note - maybe Jacob's house is the Magic Box.] I didn’t read all the comments posted so I hope nobody else said this.

Mark Pellegrino as Jacob reminded me of Cary Elwes in The Princess Bride.

It’s funny to me then that his tapestry said “May the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires” – in other words, “As you wish”.

Ahhh… only funny to me.

[Side note - maybe Jacob's house is the Magic Box.]

]]> By: Henry Holland http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-39075 Henry Holland Tue, 19 May 2009 02:57:58 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-39075 "I don’t need answers to all the questions" That's a flaw in the way the show is made, the continual hyping of "This week on LOST! The answers you've been waiting for!" only to add three questions for every one answered. I have my own Ben-related questions (what happened when Richard took him to The Temple? What happened to Annie?) but I wouldn't surprise me to not have those answered at the end, because, hey, we need yet ANOTHER Jackback telling us that he's afraid of being a leader. "Going in, we already knew that there was a bomb that was going to be thrown down the pit. We also knew Ben planned on killing Jacob. Did we need 2 hours to get there?" Sure we did! We needed almost 15 minutes out of the actual 84 minutes of screen time to have two utterly stupid, risible gun battles --as my dad said, "DHARMA deserved to be purged, they have rifles and outnumber the Losties and can't shoot a standing target 20 feet away!"-- and a fist fight between Jack and James that should have taken place in season 2! Duh! :-) I just find it kind of sad that after five seasons, the same storytelling things that bugged me in season 1: -the addiction to THE SHOCKING REVEAL!!!! in place of just telling the damn story -having someone stop before telling us something (Jacob did that when he didn't reveal The Man In Black's name on the beach) -having someone rush in to interrupt characters who are about to reveal a key plot point -having characters who normally won't shut their cake holes suddenly go silent when pressed for an answer to something -the stupid love triangle--mein Gott, at this point it's so dysfunctional and boring that to have it end with either Skate or Jate would be cruel -the role of women is solely defined by how the men in their lives react to them -the utterly inconsistent ways characters act, based on how they fit in to the plot points are still there. I realize a lot of it is that they've had to make changes on the fly (AAA not wanting to do Eko anymore, Paulo and Nikki), that going back and recreating scenes to explain something that happened in season 2 is tough and so on, but at the end of the finale, I felt like the previous 5 seasons were a sham, that most of what we saw, that the heart-wrenching deaths (Charlie) and separations (Nadia and Sayid) was irrelevant, because apparently they're now going to introduce in the finale of the next-to-last season the characters that the show is REALLY about, Jacob and Esau, erm, The Man In Black. “I don’t need answers to all the questions”

That’s a flaw in the way the show is made, the continual hyping of “This week on LOST! The answers you’ve been waiting for!” only to add three questions for every one answered. I have my own Ben-related questions (what happened when Richard took him to The Temple? What happened to Annie?) but I wouldn’t surprise me to not have those answered at the end, because, hey, we need yet ANOTHER Jackback telling us that he’s afraid of being a leader.

“Going in, we already knew that there was a bomb that was going to be thrown down the pit. We also knew Ben planned on killing Jacob. Did we need 2 hours to get there?”

Sure we did! We needed almost 15 minutes out of the actual 84 minutes of screen time to have two utterly stupid, risible gun battles –as my dad said, “DHARMA deserved to be purged, they have rifles and outnumber the Losties and can’t shoot a standing target 20 feet away!”– and a fist fight between Jack and James that should have taken place in season 2! Duh! :-)

I just find it kind of sad that after five seasons, the same storytelling things that bugged me in season 1:
-the addiction to THE SHOCKING REVEAL!!!! in place of just telling the damn story
-having someone stop before telling us something (Jacob did that when he didn’t reveal The Man In Black’s name on the beach)
-having someone rush in to interrupt characters who are about to reveal a key plot point
-having characters who normally won’t shut their cake holes suddenly go silent when pressed for an answer to something
-the stupid love triangle–mein Gott, at this point it’s so dysfunctional and boring that to have it end with either Skate or Jate would be cruel
-the role of women is solely defined by how the men in their lives react to them
-the utterly inconsistent ways characters act, based on how they fit in to the plot points

are still there. I realize a lot of it is that they’ve had to make changes on the fly (AAA not wanting to do Eko anymore, Paulo and Nikki), that going back and recreating scenes to explain something that happened in season 2 is tough and so on, but at the end of the finale, I felt like the previous 5 seasons were a sham, that most of what we saw, that the heart-wrenching deaths (Charlie) and separations (Nadia and Sayid) was irrelevant, because apparently they’re now going to introduce in the finale of the next-to-last season the characters that the show is REALLY about, Jacob and Esau, erm, The Man In Black.

]]> By: Thor http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-38990 Thor Mon, 18 May 2009 17:58:08 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-38990 Jack found the coffin in the caves, it was empty, and he destroyed right then and there! It was Kate and Sawyer who swam around int the lagoon, and they found two seats at the bottom with to persons still attached. Anyway, they were there to get the briefcase.. This was so early in the show that I'm not sure if we can make a 100% similarity between Locke and Christian based only on the fact that they arrived on the island in coffins. Jack found the coffin in the caves, it was empty, and he destroyed right then and there!

It was Kate and Sawyer who swam around int the lagoon, and they found two seats at the bottom with to persons still attached. Anyway, they were there to get the briefcase..

This was so early in the show that I’m not sure if we can make a 100% similarity between Locke and Christian based only on the fact that they arrived on the island in coffins.

]]> By: rohit http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-38918 rohit Mon, 18 May 2009 08:37:52 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-38918 This may have been noticed but Let me try my luck anyway, If you realize, there were exactly two cases of "coffins" being on board a plane that crashed on the island. The first case is Oceanic Flight that carried "Christian's body" and the second case is new flight that carried "Locke's Body"... ! In both cases of the coffin after crashing into the island ; The dead person in it seem to come alive,.. Shepard is alive and moving about and so is Locke... so maybe Essau took Shepard's form and Locke's form.... ! So maybe thats the loophole,.. Any dead body that crashes into the island is available to take form by shape shifting or posses and come alive. .?! I don't know am I making sense ?.. ! I need some additions.. ! Also in both cases,.. The actual bodies inside the coffin remain untouched, if I remember in season one,.. Someone was swimming in a pond somewhere inside the island (I think it was charlie or sawyer).. and they found Christian Shepard's Coffin underwater.. I think they found his body too.. ! And in the second case,..as seen in the season 5 finale.. Locke's body is found in his coffin... But these people come alive otherwise ;... so maybe essau shape shifted into these dead people forms and .... I dunno... any thoughts on my loose observation ? This may have been noticed but Let me try my luck anyway, If you realize, there were exactly two cases of “coffins” being on board a plane that crashed on the island. The first case is Oceanic Flight that carried “Christian’s body” and the second case is new flight that carried “Locke’s Body”… ! In both cases of the coffin after crashing into the island ; The dead person in it seem to come alive,.. Shepard is alive and moving about and so is Locke… so maybe Essau took Shepard’s form and Locke’s form…. ! So maybe thats the loophole,.. Any dead body that crashes into the island is available to take form by shape shifting or posses and come alive. .?! I don’t know am I making sense ?.. ! I need some additions.. !

Also in both cases,.. The actual bodies inside the coffin remain untouched, if I remember in season one,.. Someone was swimming in a pond somewhere inside the island (I think it was charlie or sawyer).. and they found Christian Shepard’s Coffin underwater.. I think they found his body too.. ! And in the second case,..as seen in the season 5 finale.. Locke’s body is found in his coffin… But these people come alive otherwise ;… so maybe essau shape shifted into these dead people forms and …. I dunno… any thoughts on my loose observation ?

]]> By: Dharma Adept http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-38886 Dharma Adept Mon, 18 May 2009 02:07:32 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-38886 marc, i always look forward to reading your analysis. i appreciate the points you bring up from folklore and myth. but at this point the only thing that seems certain is that nothing is certain. good call on noting Set's infertility issues. it's said that his wife Nepthys fathered Anubis with Osiris. however, Set apparently was able to spawn Sobek despite his low sperm count. one problem with calling Esau Seth is that Set is actually Sobek's father, in Egyptian lore. so instead of two equal opposites i.e. Lucifer/Gabriel, or Osiris/Set, or Loki/Baldr, you dont have fratricide but a father killing a son if you adopt that line of reasoning. that changes everything from a metaphysical point of view. i'll also agree that ABC likely erred in calling the statue Tawaret. the statue is clearly male, as is the tapestry Ilana gets from the cabin. it clearly has the head of a crocodile in the screenshot of the cloth. therefore, it almost certainly CAN'T be Tawaret, although a merged Sobek-Tawaret is possible, since the headdress appears to be Tawaret's. interestingly, Sobek is not only Set's son, but Tawaret's husband. i have no idea how this relates to Lost (or doesn't), but i'm not even gonna try to speculate on what may not be speculatable at this point. i'm just gonna wait and see how it turns out. marc, i always look forward to reading your analysis. i appreciate the points you bring up from folklore and myth. but at this point the only thing that seems certain is that nothing is certain.

good call on noting Set’s infertility issues. it’s said that his wife Nepthys fathered Anubis with Osiris. however, Set apparently was able to spawn Sobek despite his low sperm count.

one problem with calling Esau Seth is that Set is actually Sobek’s father, in Egyptian lore. so instead of two equal opposites i.e. Lucifer/Gabriel, or Osiris/Set, or Loki/Baldr, you dont have fratricide but a father killing a son if you adopt that line of reasoning. that changes everything from a metaphysical point of view.

i’ll also agree that ABC likely erred in calling the statue Tawaret. the statue is clearly male, as is the tapestry Ilana gets from the cabin. it clearly has the head of a crocodile in the screenshot of the cloth. therefore, it almost certainly CAN’T be Tawaret, although a merged Sobek-Tawaret is possible, since the headdress appears to be Tawaret’s. interestingly, Sobek is not only Set’s son, but Tawaret’s husband. i have no idea how this relates to Lost (or doesn’t), but i’m not even gonna try to speculate on what may not be speculatable at this point. i’m just gonna wait and see how it turns out.

]]> By: Marc Oromaner http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-38860 Marc Oromaner Sun, 17 May 2009 23:08:15 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-38860 Thanks for pointing that out, still I'm not so sure. The description is certainly not canon. And if that is Tawaret, then the creators are certainly taking liberties since she is usually depicted with a face and body of a pregnant hippo--she usually has hippo legs, not human legs like Sobek. Then again, I DID think the body looked female and thought the mini-skirt was a bit short! Thanks for pointing that out, still I’m not so sure. The description is certainly not canon. And if that is Tawaret, then the creators are certainly taking liberties since she is usually depicted with a face and body of a pregnant hippo–she usually has hippo legs, not human legs like Sobek. Then again, I DID think the body looked female and thought the mini-skirt was a bit short!

]]> By: Marc Oromaner http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-38857 Marc Oromaner Sun, 17 May 2009 22:59:56 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-38857 How do you know that we are able to follow our freewill? Just as with the "whatever happened, happened" theme, the characters only think they have the freedom to choose. The reality is that their "choice" was set in stone and exactly what needed to be done. Not saying I believe this id the case for our world. Just playing the devil's advocate. How do you know that we are able to follow our freewill? Just as with the “whatever happened, happened” theme, the characters only think they have the freedom to choose. The reality is that their “choice” was set in stone and exactly what needed to be done. Not saying I believe this id the case for our world. Just playing the devil’s advocate.

]]> By: Marc Oromaner http://www.docarzt.com/lost/marc-oromaner%e2%80%99s-lost-in-myth-%e2%80%9cthe-incident%e2%80%9d%e2%80%94having-faith-in-jacob-and-lost/comment-page-1/#comment-38854 Marc Oromaner Sun, 17 May 2009 22:38:41 +0000 http://www.docarzt.com/?p=7624#comment-38854 Even if Juliet is dead, I'd only say dead from the island. I don't believe that any of the characters who died there are dead "in the real world" as Sawyer kept saying. Even if Juliet is dead, I’d only say dead from the island. I don’t believe that any of the characters who died there are dead “in the real world” as Sawyer kept saying.

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