So why does Jack have to cart Locke’s carcass back to the island? My theory is because it does not belong in the universe that the characters are in.
Proponents of a time/space injury sitting silently at the core of LOST’s overarching mystery will appreciate the notion that the presence of mass that shouldn’t exist, even a little, could easily be a cosmological nightmare. I trust you’ve all seen Timecop? No? Well, in Timecop a duplicate could not come in contact with an earlier or future time version of himself or herself – lest a bunch of nasty stuff would happen.
In the outtakes of the Orchid video shown at Comic-Con, Marvin Candle signaled a similar sort of calamity with the LOST-verse’s own version of dealing with duplicates. Don’t let them touch.
Rewind to the mystery of Oceanic 815. The assumption is that the wreckage is planted, we’ve seen Mr. Friendly’s documents proving it. But what if that mystery was just thrown back into the slow cooker. What if nobody planted the wreckage? What if it IS the wreckage, from the original time-line, and all of the Oceanic 815 survivors should be dead.
These questions are best answered in the end game, so I wouldn’t expect MUCH solid evidence on this one way or the other up until this point. The LOST guys are not known for leaving a clear breadcrumb trail to their resolutions, but they do leave a lot of long tail hints. The cable for instance. Is there enough evidence to make the time loop/universe out of balance theories work at this point? Perhaps “You have to bring him too” is the best indicator so far.
LF108 somehow saw this as them needing to bring Locke back to life. Well, LF108 is a Locke fan apparently. Locke probably knew he was an offense to the universe and tried to remove himself from the equation. Either way, the need to bring Locke back could come down to a finite equation. Too much mass. Just enough to alter the spin of the Universe’s own Donkey wheel. Seem too strange and oblique? Think of how obsessed LOST is with the interconnectedness of ‘things’, events, people, relationships. The idea isn’t that there is an equation in the show we’ll need to be able to solve, but that some small connections will become vital to endgame. Including the dead mass of one John Locke.
In most of the whacked universe theories, the island is a privileged frame of reference. It’s the Universe’s Las Vegas. What happens on the island stays on the island. Lots of time tripping and space bending is going on there, but for the most part the outside world is immune to it’s effects. It is, from one of my own earlier theories, a “Closed Time-like Curve.” A mini-verse.
Using the show’s own logic with the idea of a privileged field, if the Oceanic 815 originally crashed somewhere within the halo of this effect, their ‘course correction’ would belong to the island. If the mini-stroke caused by the Swan’s near meltdown caused a shift, as seen in the Orchid vids, it is very possible that there is a full second plane out there full of dead Sawyers, Jacks, Hurleys, Kates, and Frogurts. If it crashed first, before 815 part 2 (the pilot strikes back) came to rest near the island, course correction demands that event be corrected. Problem is, with the time bending of the mini-stroke, when did the death take place? Voila. Cosmic conundrum. Perhaps the best solution to right things is to bring all mass that does not belong back to the island.
I strongly believe the show will have an apocalyptic as well as a dramatic close. Probably the apocalypse before the drama, because you want the character story for resonance. It is unlikely, though, that the stakes will wind down as the story advances. In the end, Dr. Jack and company could be responsible for whether all of us live or die, unwitting and unsuspecting players in cosmogonic fugue where the stakes are real, but the true redemption comes in being able to start over. The boon of the island, the correcting of space time, the heading off of some unseen event, all will be secondary to a story of choice, and sacrifice.
43 Responses to “Why Locke Must Return (AKA All Unnecessary Mass Must Return To The Island)”
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Doc, nice article, but I’d suggest stop mentioning a certain person…I don’t think he deserves any more attention beyond what he’s got already.
Why I will never watch Lost again.
(Do not read if you have not seen the season 4 finale)
Well, we have seen the season 4 finale, the frozen donkey wheel has been turned, the island moved, and Locke is dead..wait, whaaaa?! Locke is Dead?!?! This little
Doc, you got a lot of good ideas a lot of the time, but this business about the wreckage not being a hoax? Come on, really? Think of it from a story perspective. Why would the writer’s, after confirming that Widmore DID put a FAKE plane down there on more then a few occasions by different characters (with documents served up by Tom to prove it), shoot themselves in the foot narratively by saying “Oh wait, that’s not it.” It would cheat the audience just as if the whole story turned out to be a dream (which I believe were the views expressed by Darlton him/themself). You pose an interesting argument, but I’m just saying that, like Naomi’s bracelet, sometimes things are just how they are.
to Theory 156:
There are two seasons left, do you really think thats the end for the Man?
Theory 156 –
Dude chill out. Why in the world would you believe the Lost writers that Locke is dead just because you’ve SEEN him dead? I wholeheartedly believe he’s not dead. This show has already proven that one person can be in two places at once, that there can be multiple copies of one person, and that death is not always death. Maybe, like others have said, he “sacrificed” himself to save the island or some other reason we don’t understand yet (but we will) but his living “real” body is still on the Island as leader of the Others. I don’t know how or why Locke is in that coffin, but I think he’s certainly not done.
Have faith, brother.
Theory 156…
Please… back away from your computer… slowly… and now repeat, over and over… “It’s only a TV show, it’s only a TV show.”
I suspect, like a number of other characters on the show, Locke is undead. Dead on the off-island segment of the timeline, alive on the on-island segment of the timeline.
It has been a theme for almost two seasons that, in the Lost mythos, dead is not the same as we precieve it, at least not for all the characters, any more than time is understood as we precieved it(as per Faraday).
WLN
Michelle, if they show a character as dead, he better be dead otherwise we can’t trust the writers, ever. If they pulled something like that, why would we care if a character dies…they could just come back? It would totally cheapen every character death on the show. Sure, we’ll see him in more episodes, but he’s definitely dead.
And I have to agree that killing him off shakes my faith in the show a bit – I’m not sure I want to keep watching a LOST without Locke.
Didn’t Lapidus know the plane was a fake from seeing a ring on the wrong finger of the pilots corpse? This, coupled with the photos suggests to me it really was set up.
Still, it’s a really cool idea and you still may be correct…
I feel very strongly that the Island is ‘currently’ in a place where the laws that govern time and space do not apply. Ben turns the wheel, wearing Haliwax’s jacket and a bleeding arm, the Island disappears. Months/Years later : Ben appears in the desert, wearing Halliwax’s jacket and his arm is still bleeding. Vapour/steam rises from his body as though he just got taken out of the freezer and put on the side to defrost. He has snow/ice caked in his shoes and there is more on the ground around his feet.
I believe that for the Oceanic Six and the world at large, time is flowing normally but for Ben at least, the amount of time elapsed between him cutting his arm on the ladder/nail and his materialization in the desert is very small indeed as he is still bleeding!
I agree – and have always thought this as well. I think a very important piece of the Ben arriving in the desert scene is how he disables the locals who find him. Hes like 007 !
Ben, who as we know, cant be trusted, has always portrayed himself as weak, at least physicaly. We now know that this is not true also. So there has to be some back story on how he gets his fighting ability, as well as it attributing to his readyness for figting in the future. Hes brains and physical strenght, quite formidable !
Well, I think anyone who assumes locke is “dead” (in the traditional sense, like ecko, boone, etc) or that we will not see locke’s character in the final episode of the final season probably isn’t looking at the big picture here.
If the “island” wants/needs the O6 to bring Locke’s body back to paradise it is certainly not for kicks and giggles or a fancy funeral service. Locke will continue to play a central part as the story unfolds.
I am hoping that writers will shed some light on how the “others” (now including Locke) traverse across space and/or time so easily… something tells me it is not just the orchid station that is involved. (i dont see a polar bear fitting into that tiny vault…) and I want to know what the Others know about the island’s history.
Ben mentioned that the others would answer all of Locke’s questions, and I would assume next season would pick up where this season left off (present time), with flashbacks of what happens to everyone left on the island leading up to Locke leaving the island himself and subsequent death.
Maybe Locke will ask the right questions… but maybe not.
I like your theory doc, but i don’t buy the wreck being real. I want to believe it because i am still upset that they killed Locke off. He was my favorite. I was so upset i dreamed about it!! LOL.
milo said: “Michelle, if they show a character as dead, he better be dead otherwise we can’t trust the writers…”
Milo, I’m not sure what you mean by “we can’t trust the writers.” First off, this show is fiction, and it has elements of science and supernatural fiction, AND IT’S THE PRODUCERS/WRITERS show. They can develop the plot anyway they want.
And besides, the writers have been giving you hints/clues for almost two seasons now that there are dead, undead and alive conditions. And that there is some sort of time travel going on. Would you have the same thing to say about time travel “if they show a character in 1950, he better be in 1950 and not be seen in 1980?”
WLN
Nate & WLN you make a good point. i really hope it’s true.
Remember, they killed locke, but they didn’t necessarily kill him OFF. I am sure he will still be on the show until the end. And not as a dead body a la weekend at Bernies.
By the way, does anyone else remember that the obit that Jack read way back mentioned that the dead person left behind a teenage son? What do you guys think…. is that just an error or is there more to this and someone out there is 1. posing as John’s son, 2 John has a son we don’t know about 3 some other weird explanation?
Love the TimeCop reference!! I mentioned in a post a few days ago. With all the time travel theories going around, I suggested that people look at one of Jean Claude Van Dam’s finest pieces of work. Cool movie for sure.
They didn’t kill him off. He will be on all the on island scenes next year and perhaps into season 6. Plus, who knows what happens once they bring him back, maybe he will end up being Jacob all along.
GREAT finale.
I think Locke makes up a back story for himself, perhaps takes Michaels story…adopts Walt…who knows…Walt and locke always did have a special connection.
Am I the only one sad to see Michael go? i think so.
Dare I say it? I think this years finale tops last years. And I totally buy the wheel, its machinery that triggers other machinery, its not just the wheel that moved the island. I think it may have something to do with the volcano? Also, does anyone think that the island moved at the end of season 2?
Guys…and girls, keep in mind that the scene with Ben and Jack looking at John’s casket takes place THREE YEARS from when they get off the island. There’s two seasons left…..so don’t you think we’ll see more of John??
I guess the real question is – Where does S5 begin?
We’ve been informed that S5 will deal with the ‘Why’ they need to get back to the island and S6 will focus on them going back…..but my question is – What has happened in the three years from when they left until Locke dies?
Here’s some possibilities -
1. Locke becomes the leader of the Others and over time he starts taking the island for granted, much like Ben did. He falls out of favor with Jacob, like Ben did, and a new leader is chosen…possibly causing Locke to leave and not return, like Widmore, or possibly he has to ‘move’ the island and thus suffers the consequences that Ben did – exile.
2. Locke is cloned and the two touch eachother, causing one to die – hence a dead Locke clone in the coffin.
3. Locke left the island, for whatever reason, and couldn’t walk again….so he committed suicide.
4. Locke suffers massive guilt for the supposed death of Jack, Hurley, etc, as he believes the freighter exploded with them on it, and comes to a realization that maybe Widmore is the good guy, not Ben….so he leaves the island and is killed by Ben before he can reach Widmore.
One thing we do know is that Jeremy Bentham, aka Locke, visited most of the 06…or all of them possibly. Widmore had guys following each of the 06, so maybe one of them took Locke out?
Lots of questions, and lots of time to ponder. Will the new ARG be worth following? Didn’t catch the first one, so thoughts on that would be appreciated!!
Mr. DesmondHume: The article (as much as was actually shown in the episode, anyway), made no mention of the deceased’s son. There was an alleged translation of the full article, which was supposed to be from an accurate source (which I doubted from the beginning, and had it confirmed in my head last night), which quoted the deceased as having a son and being an architect and a few other oddball facts that (in my opinion) were meant to lead us astray from “who was in the coffin”.
“You’re not supposed to raise him, Jack”.
What if Charlie’s message to Jack (via Hurley) meant that Jack is not supposed to RAISE John from the dead!!!
Umm, I would lay off citing Jean-Claude Van Damme movies if you want to maintain your geek cred Jon.
I was hoping that my comments would have been taken with a tongue-in-cheek attitude. I absolutely respect these writers, however, I probably won’t watch the show again. If only due to the fact that this is a character who may be seen in flashbacks or as “undead” (or i like to think, manifestations of the island) the show really kinda jumped it for me. We all know that once a character is dead, they are dead. I do not see Locke coming back as anything other than a quick apparition, or for an episode that explains the story of him coming back to the mainland and attempting to convince the 6 to return. This is why I am so dismayed with the decision to kill his character. I understand that many of you do not think this will have much effect on how much he is in the show, due to some of these clone theories, or undead theories. I personally don’t buy those theories, and as evidenced on the show so far, dead characters make appearances sometimes, but usually only briefly, and usually only a few episodes. I personally am hoping very much he is just as prominent a character as he has been, but i dont see it happening. And thanks WLN, i am aware its just a tv show, and like you I have spent a lot of time invested in this show, and I am sure you have had your frustrated moments as well while watching, so dont be a hypocrite. Theory 156
I loved the idea of Locke in the coffin… Ok, don’t freak out, but listen to the theory… Now he’s going to be like a Christian Shephard character… just look at the similarities… Locke met most of the O6 before dying, similar to how Christian met (and were directly responsible for) some of the future 815 passengers getting on the plane… Also look at the way, Christian is now, running around the Island and off-the-Island in some “God-like” fashion… I think after the O6 and the body of Locke make their way back to the Island, Locke’s going to be the new Christian…
Ben moves island. Ben is banished. HOWEVER, Jacob will let Ben back IF he brings the Oceanic Six back so ‘pooof’ Ben gets zapped to the desert to start bringing ‘em back….it’s the only way to beat Widmore…
I think the whole issue with the bearing of leaving the island is being overlooked and ties into the parallel timeline theory. I think we need to know more about Michael’s story. There is significance to the fact he came out at bearing 325 as opposed to bearing 305. And perhaps they all came out at a different bearing in all of the confusion last night.
I think Michael had to have come off the island at a point in time before the crash. That is why he was not a celebrity. No one knew about the crash before it happened. That is why he had so much time to do all that he did before getting on the freighter. That explains the strange conversation Michael had with his mother and she was yelling at him for being gone two months, etc. This ties in with your theory, because if he came back before the crash (i.e. before 9/22/2004), he would have known not to get on the plane and start the cycle all over. But if he didn’t get on the plane then all events on the island would change. So how do you reconcile? I think this raises the possibility of two parallel timelines, one in which he got on the plane and one in which he did not, ie. two parallel Michaels running around. While the Michael and Walt who escaped from the island were back in NY, the real life Michael and Walt were getting on the plane. They can’t be allowed to see each other. In addition to the Orchid video, also remember the book the Evil Twin and all the speculation about there being twins, etc. a while back. The only way to set things straight is to come back to island and then leave again at the right bearing.
I loved the episode. I have a few nitpicks, but to me, LOST is like pizza – even when it’s bad, it’s pretty dang good.
Here’s the only hang-up I have about it being Locke in the coffin: they went to great lengths this season to show that the Island will not let a character die if it still “neds” them for something (Michael & Jack couldn’t kill themselves, Keamy couldn’t kill Michael). So if it’s so important that all of them return to the Island, how was Locke able to “die” in the first place?
Unless maybe this is a huge foreshadowing that Widmore is able to arrive on the Island and really “change the rules” some more?
WLN, the writers get to make it all up, but they establish a universe and the rules that dictate it. Once those rules have been established, they need to stay consistent or risk the audience feeling like they’ve been cheated. So far there have been many dead characters appearing, but the show has given the impression that they have all been apparitions of some sort and the character hasn’t actually come back to life. It’s scifi, but scifi in which the dead can be ghosts but not come back to life (similar in this respect to Harry Potter, which the writers are huge fans of). On the podcast, the producers have also repeatedly said that they don’t like the idea of bringing back dead characters back to life – once they do that, there’s no emotional reaction to any character dying since they can just undo it later (see HEROES). On a show with reanimation of the dead, there’s no real risk or stakes.
Everyone keeps saying well the coffin scene takes place in the future so don’t worry Locke fans….well its not the same whatching your favorite character knowing he’s gonna die anyway. And even if he does come back as “undead” its not the same. boooo
What if Locke copied himself in the Orchid and had his copy sent back to “reality” to convince the O6 to come back. After his copy relayed Locke’s message, he killed himself so they would never come in contact with each other. Ben’s idea (to get back at Locke and the island for banishing him) is to bring the body back to that something bad happens to real, alive, island Locke. I don’t know if that makes sense, but the thought occurred to me while reading through the comments. Either way, We’ll at least have another season of Locke during season 5, showing how he got to his current state.
the two bunnies cant touch because of they are essentially matter and antimatter and if they come into contact they would annihilate each other. Ben can not return for much the same reason. How that pertains to the overall Lost story line we will have to wait and see.
Gotta agree with the people saying that the staged wreckage of Oceanic 815 is still staged. We haven’t seen quantum duplicates yet, and if we ever do, I think it’ much more likely to be a person than the whole of 815. Also, a “quantum duplicate 815″ theory still doesn’t explain the placement of the wreckage, while a “staged wreckage” theory does.
As for Locke…even if he is dead, he’s not done. There’s the small matter of all the “bad stuff” that happens between the Island moving and Locke’s leaving the Island to try to convince the O6 (and others) to come back personally. Furthermore, if ever any character of Lost might possibly have a “resurrection” miracle, it’s John Locke. Told right, that could be beyond powerful instead of the “writers’ hack” people here are being quick to assume it would be.
(Now, the 1.5 year jump out of nowhere at the end of Season 2 of BSG…that was a writers’ hack!)
Ok even if Locke is really really dead, he’s dean way in the future – at least 3 years! Right?
So he kinda dies AFTER the series ends!!
Can you all deal with that? Right?
Tom
remember, if the island doesn’t want you dead..you won’t die. it seems that both ben and charles widmore can’t die yet. michael couldn’t die until the island wanted him to. so…..obviously the island wanted locke dead. but WHY. is it to bring jack & co back? will locke magically be alive when they get back? ….is locke already dead (based on the gunshot wound ben gave him) and a ghost, zombie, whatever they are…who knows.
I would find the wreck being real to be acceptable because it was Ben/Friendly that confirmed Widmore planted it, but Widmore’s own people thought it was the other way around. Who was truly to blame may be a matter of what certain people need to think in service to other certain people.
Just a thought to link soem theories together.. what if Locke causes the trouble on the Island by disobeying Richard and using Dharma technology and clones himself like the rabbit so his clone could either leave the Island (or push the wheel). Then, believing the Island can not let him die he foolishly risks his life or grows despondent over not being able to return and tries to kill himself and does in fact die because the real Locke is on the Island. Ben wants to bring him back because if the two Locke’s should meet they will cause a temporal disruption and Ben thinks this will force the Island to course correct and kill them both. Instead, it turns Locke into Jacob.
Actually Sonya, we have seen duplicates… in the orchid out-take. That duplicate was also teleported trough time. Not saying this theory is correct, mind you, it’s juts a fun speculation, but the stress was on the donkey wheel being able to move the island through space, and time. So the duplicate 815 could have been teleported away.
When Ben said to Jack that they had to take Locke with them, all I could think about was “Weekend at Bernie’s”.
Theory 156:
This may have been said, but this is in the future, not now. Locke is not dead now. That will take place another time, if he is truly dead. But I don’t think he is. As they said, Jeremy Bentham is dead. Not John Locke. Maybe John Locke is Jacob.
First I think the final show of this season was great.
As far as the is Locke dead or not question. In the movie The Illusionist. SPOILER for that movie ahead…..In that movie copies of people are involved. As some have speculated the Locke in the coffin could be a copy.
Another idea is what if the Locke in the coffin is like Desmond when he was time hopping or what ever between times. In the time frame he was not in he looked dead. Could Locke just be gone for a long time from the time frame Jack and Ben are in and people thought he was dead? I am thinking this is not the case but wouldn’t it be a cool if they showed the coffin and Locke opened his eyes????
I thought some more about my last post.
Locke not being dead and just time traveling would be a problem after an autopsy and embalming…Oh well it was an idea.
The plane is REAL
From the day Naomi mentioned it I proposed the theory on Fuselage forum. It was confirmed to me with the Orchid video. Yes, people have snickered at it for more than year but Im afraid its true.
You will know its real after you read this…
http://johnburgerlost.blogspot.com/
Unfortunately this is one of the biggest mysteries on the show and I feel it was too obvious. The only reason why most viewers dont see it is they dont want to. Bias is a powerful thing. But this entire Show is based on the Theme that they are ALL DEAD. This was the plan from the beginning. Its not stupid or lame or cheating..its the story.
What Is lame is how people trust the words of the villians to confirm its staged and completely reject clue after clue after clue that the plane is Real. Again..I point hem out in my blog.
I’m with you john. The moment Naomi mentioned it I was in the “The plane is real” camp and posted it on TheTailsection. Mark our words… mark our words…
Maybe Locke and Ben have a plan and he “killed” himself to finally prove to Jack and the others the true nature of the island. When they get back and Lockes suddenly up from his casket, like Christian after the initial crash, there’ll be no denying the fact that the island is a place “where miracles happen.” This would imply that Locke, Ben, and “the island” need the O6 back. But why?????????????????????????
The whole idea that the ocean floor wreckage isnt fake starts my head spinning. But I cant see them being dead. Theyve got to be clones or duplicates of some sort.
Two things seemed contradictory to whats come before in the season finale: Christian telling Michael he “can go now.” Almost seemed like a child-like god on a power trip. And Claire telling Kate not to bring Aaron back. If shes on the island wouldnt she want him back. And if shes now “one” with the island, wouldnt she think he belongs there, or know thats the only safe place for him? Unless that was just all in Kates head.
Its interesting that Walts the only living person to also be an apparition. Maybe the other Walt was Jeremy Bentham………………….