Comments on: Doggone It, People Like Me!

By: Mark

Mark — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 19:31:42 +0000

This is a great debate! Lots of great points on all sides.

Widmore & Hawking brother & sister makes a LOT of sense to me!

By: Valley

Valley — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:32:17 +0000

I don’t think that Widmore and Hawking are/were married. In ‘Jughead’ young Hawking ( Ellie ) makes a sarcastic comment to young Widmore. And he replies “Shut up Ellie.” in a childish way. So I think they are brother and sister.

By: jessea

jessea — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 14:38:38 +0000

i think we might be forgetting something…
remember Michael trying to kill himself? didn’t work. Jack trying to jump off the bridge? didn’t work. Maybe suicide wouldn’t have worked for Locke either, and Ben knew that.
Now, that does NOT excuse Ben or make him a good guy, and I am now a big fan of Snitty Smitty for not only his talk on relativism, but for correcting the usage of “perception”, because I’m an English major and believe in that sort of correction.
Ben is BAD. BAD Ben. no excuse. but I don’t think Locke would’ve been able to kill himself. someone else had to take him out…

By: WLN

WLN — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 03:39:56 +0000

Charlie’s Ghost said: ” gotta love how yet another person incorrectly states that Widmore sent Locke to Hawking.”

Yes, you are correct, that was my mistake. I was making notes right after the episode, and I may have gotten that information from an early summary of the episode on another LOST blog. And after posting, the mistake was pointed out to me.

So, my apology.

Now, on another note. If you would like to try you hand at developing Doc Arzt front page articles, then please, email Doc and I suspect he would be glad to give you a shot at it.

Charlie, people do make mistakes, at least I do and have, and I suspect that I will at times again. If you are such a person that doesn’t make a mistake, then you are very lucky, and the more power to you.

By: Mrs. Alpert

Mrs. Alpert — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 02:25:18 +0000

I agree with you, Ben is the guy we want to be good but can never be sure of! And Locke is my fave character too. I don’t think that Richard was fooled though- I think there’s protocol on the island regarding leadership… and Richard doesn’t have the power to get the leader off the bench… unless he finds a replacement (like John)…

By: Scott

Scott — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 01:12:13 +0000

then why did ben eat all the “dark” meat?

By: Beena

Beena — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 00:31:06 +0000

Without knowing any additional information, and just based on what has been revealed to us, I think Ben is a villain in the story. He is a complex villain, however. I can see how Sayid, John, Richard Alpert, or even the viewing audience might be inclined to temporarily fall under his conniving spell or fall for the carrots he dangles. And I always want to believe Ben is a “stand up kind of guy”. But then, I think about some of the very despicable things he’s done or said (snickering), and he goes right back into the villain pile for me.
Watching him kill, yet again, particularly when the someone was John Locke (my favorite character), was the real deal breaker for me. Of course maybe Ben knew this might be the only way John could be resurrected or bring back the O6. But it remains to be seen!
And I laughed my head off when Ben called Jack from the marina and he was all roughed up! Or when a resurrected John stood over a helpless Ben at the end of the show! I can’t imagine this show without Ben. No way, no how. But not because I think Ben is a good guy…

By: Handsome Smitty

Handsome Smitty — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 22:58:48 +0000

We don’t know that the man with Emily was necessarily the father of the child, is what i am saying. Your suggestion of an affair with a grifter would be one suggestion and the hatred for young Linus another. I think it very realistic. IF it is the case then I am sure that will be shown eventually.

By: Charlie's Ghost

Charlie's Ghost — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 21:14:33 +0000

gotta love how yet another person incorrectly states that Widmore sent Locke to Hawking. I always thought these featured posters were subject matter experts, but that’s two recent posts now that have made some incorrect assessments.

By: johr77

johr77 — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 18:09:24 +0000

agreed…
and i think ben was just waiting to find the way back.
notice how he says i dont know what to do when we get them…
and john says i do, we go to hawking……..
and then john is dead.

ben just wanted a name on who knew how to get back,
thats my take on it anyway…..

now why he insists on bringing johns body along…. i havent a clue.

By: preztige

preztige — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 13:55:43 +0000

I think the question is, why would Ben just keep Locke alive knowing all the 06 and locke and ben could travel back to the island together by Ajira Airlines? The answer: they needed to replicate Christians dead body. But why not replicate John being on the plane? Well, because he is the key; and doing that would change his destiny.

By: Benjamin Linus a.k.a Locke-Killer

Benjamin Linus a.k.a Locke-Killer — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 08:08:25 +0000

*busted*

By: meems

meems — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 07:38:11 +0000

Well, we’ve seen Ben’s dad, and we saw Emily Linus die in his arms in Portland. We saw Ben come to the island as an older child, and it was pretty obvious that his dad had never been on the island before then, so I don’t understand the thinking that Ben could have eben conceived on the island, or that Ben’s dad wasn’t his biological father. At least, if he weren’t, that would have meant that Locke’s dad had had an affair with Emily Linus and been in Portland 8 months prior to the roadside birth scene. Although, I suppose that if Ben’s father had the notion Ben weren’t his biological child, this could be part of the reason he loathed him so much; however, I don’t think this is a realistic scenario.

By: hyperRevue

hyperRevue — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 03:56:42 +0000

But can’t choosing to “cause more harm than good to others” be considered evil? I don’t think it’s always as cut and dry as good vs. evil. Aren’t there any situations that are bad vs. worse and then wouldn’t choosing “bad” be the moral/right thing to do?

By: Handsome Smitty

Handsome Smitty — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 03:52:55 +0000

Snitty Smitty! I like it!

Eh, just what is that again?

Seriously, if one inescapable outcome is evil and the other good, then I will chose the later even if it causes more harm than good to others. Giving in to base needs instead of aspiring for a greater understanding is always a mistake.

Or like Christian said, “Why do you think it’s called a sacrifice?”

By: jimmy zer0

jimmy zer0 — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 03:45:21 +0000

Doc, I love you. You say the things that my booze and drug riddled brains cannot articulate. So what you are saying is that Ben may be pulling a Bishop? <3
That’s a heart, for you.
I am also on the Ben is Bad Boat, but I will say that the question of Ben’s alignment has bugged the hell out of me since the first episode that he appeared in. I definitely think on it more than any other mystery on the show. Weird thing is? I really hope that Ben IS the good guy and that he and Locke team up to kick all kinds of crazy ass.

By: jimmy zer0

jimmy zer0 — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 03:34:41 +0000

But what about Utilitarianism? If you are caught between two possible, inescapable outcomes, and one outcome protects a larger amount of lives, you go with that one no matter what you have to do to bring it about. Morals don’t figure into it one bit. Just ask Jack Bauer. And Smitty, you knew what WLN meant when she spoke about perceptions. That’s an extremely common twist of vernacular and WLN didn’t invent it. No need to get snitty, Smitty.

By: clueless1der

clueless1der — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 02:20:00 +0000

With in the world of LOST, and because we as the viewer do not have the whole story arc as of yet, we cannot assume that it’s impossible for Ben to be a good guy.

It really pains me to say this…. but I don’t see how some of his actions can be justified as “good.” Maybe in his head, everything is justified… but the audience can’t help but apply some ethical judgments on his actions.

Trust me. I want to think he’s a good guy… or at least not the megalomania-driven evil bastard the rest of the characters (and most of the viewing audience) see him as. I cross my fingers that there will be some backstory that explains further some of his life and actions. BUT… with so few episodes left, I don’t know that I’ll get it.

It’s possible the writers don’t have the good taste to be as obsessed with Ben as I am.

By: hyperRevue

hyperRevue — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 01:07:35 +0000

I agree. I think Hawking pushed him over the edge but Jin nudged him too.

By: Handsome Smitty

Handsome Smitty — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 00:57:17 +0000

I think the strained expression was from trying not to burst into a stereotypical “bwa-ha-ha!”

By: Handsome Smitty

Handsome Smitty — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 00:55:19 +0000

Good point about Ben’s mother. But you can’t change the past.

Do we know for sure Ben and John’s father are not the same man? I don’t think so. I always figured that Locke’s supposed father, because if the kidney donation, could well have been Ben’s as well.

And poetic justice if Sawyer terminates Ben, huh.

By: Handsome Smitty

Handsome Smitty — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 00:49:25 +0000

From my perspective it is clear “Hawking” set Ben off. I don’t completely understand why: After all, Hawking seemed unfazed by his presence and knew enough about him to ask Jack why would he believe Ben.

It appears Sawyer and Juliet are also working at Dharma, not just Jin.

By: Handsome Smitty

Handsome Smitty — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 00:44:47 +0000

Some have done bad things with remorse, or at least with accepting the fact that their actions may be immoral. That is the opposite of relativism. These characters are capable of moral reasoning that is based on something outside of themselves.

Ben is not. Whether born or manufactured, Ben is a sociopath. His “Good End” is what benefits him, not others.

Now, if somehow all the people Ben has murdered or manipulated into miserable suffering somehow find themselves resurrected and happy at the end of Lost then Ben is not bad or good – BEN IS GOD!

Ain’t happening.

Ben bad Bad Ben.

By: Handsome Smitty

Handsome Smitty — Sun, 01 Mar 2009 00:30:09 +0000

WLN: “Don’t think so, and I am certainly not talking relativism. We can’t always compare our way of dealing with events in the same way as characters with in the frame of a fictional story would. We have to understand morals in “their world.”

That is relativism!!! That is saying there is no right and wrong. That is saying right and wrong is based on perspective.

From Ben’s perspective it’s not murder!?!

Doesn’t fly. While I don’t doubt that the Lost creators are probably from the Left side of the fence and perhaps relativists, your argument definitely relativistic.

WLN: “And even so, in the real world, we make decisions that sometimes compromise morals for the greater good. War itself is certainly a simple example. Innocents will get hurt or killed during a war, but, there are moral reasons to engage in war.”

Relativism, ditto! Engaging in a “necessary evil” is not necessarily compromising morals, sorry. War is actual a poor argument, although it is arguable whether or not there are necessary or unnecessary wars.

WLN: “With in the world of LOST, and because we as the viewer do not have the whole story arc as of yet, we cannot assume that it’s impossible for Ben to be a good guy.”

Ben is not a good guy. He is a sociopath. Murder is inexcusable.

The only we’ve-not-seen-enough-yet character is actually Widmore. Yes, he knew he was hiring extremely competent mercenaries, but could he have foreseen that one would murder an innocent girl or those on the ship that were rebelling? All we know for sure is that Ben was the target. The explosives could well have been intended to be used to destroy the poison gas that Daniel neutralized.

WLN: “Especially since we have already seen how the writers of this series can so expertly change our perception of who’s good and who’s not good.”

They can only change the perspective of the characters/story. They cannot change my perceptions.

perception |pərˈsep sh ən|
noun
the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses : the normal limits to human perception.
• the state of being or process of becoming aware of something in such a way : the perception of pain.
• a way of regarding, understanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression : Hollywood’s perception of the tastes of the American public | we need to challenge many popular perceptions of old age.
• intuitive understanding and insight :

MY perceptions are based on what I can detect and then what I can determine from prior knowledge. Therefore, if the writers limit or toggle my perspective then so too are my perceptions.

One thing the writers cannot do is convert me to relativism. If they create a monster like Ben and then make him the savior of the world in some way, they are only creating an argument for relativism.

That is an argument I reject.

I stand by my statement: Relativism is an argument for the delusional.

By: dave

dave — Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:13:33 +0000

Anyone noticed the link between Ben’s situation with his mother dying at birth and the mysterious situation on the island with mothers dying at birth??? He obviously went to great lengths to try and solve the problem, ( with recruiting Juliet etc.. Do you think that his overall plan could be as simple as to get a cure/ way of stopping mothers dying on the island, and then turning the donkey wheel to travel back in time and save his mother??? What if his father wasn’t the man he killed in the purge, and he only found out when the ghost of his mother visited him on the island and told him that she lived on and conceived him on that island with a different man???
Ben says alot of things that we think are complete lies, but there always seems to be some truth, he just tends to bend it slightly to fit his needs. All this time he has said that he was born on the island and we know this to be a lie because of the flash back. I think that Ben was conceived on the island!!! Like Suns daughter!!