Kate and Jack’s romance has never really been a rush job. It just seemed like that on the surface. I had come to a realization, last season, that it was inevitable it would be those two. Not because they were hooked up from the beginning. I realized this because despite being tagged as a “couple” from the beginning, they went through a lot of bullshit over the past five seasons. Kate had to stop idealizing Jack and trying to please him. Jack had to let go of her. It took them five to six seasons to do this. Yes, they still love each other. But . . . not in that stupid and immature way they did, in the previous seasons.

Who cares? Why on earth should anyone care whom a screwed up murderess/kidnapper like Kate Austen will choose as her mate? If Lindenhof and Cuse had any decency, Kate Austen would die a gruesome death before Jack or Sawyer get stuck with her. She isn’t worthy of either of them. And the fact that a fuck up like Kate is the show’s main leading lady isn’t helping matters.

For several seasons I have longed to see a redemptive arc — any beginning of healing for Jack’s profoundly crippled (angry, avoidant, reactive) soul, but unfortunately it has not been furthered by his relationships thus far, neither with Kate nor Juliet, because every time he gets to a crucial junction, it seems he just he opts out — walks away, detaches, rages, possesses, sulks, medicates — anything to avoid facing the pain of his life. Along with and perhaps because of this, the effect of relationship with Kate doesn’t seem to bring out the best in him; his physical heroism is not accompanied by a willingness to assess where he has been and walk a different path. His intentions (fixing and rescuing) are (ostensibly) noble but his unresolved “issues” warp his actions and distort his outcomes.

In contrast Sawyer, in a very imperfect yet genuine way, allows himself to be reached, to be transformed — even amid his flawed choices and even by all the crazy-scary-outrageous stuff that happens on the mysterious Island. Along with and perhaps because of this, the effect of relationship with each of these two women (themselves very imperfect and responding to the significantly unresolved content of their own lives) seems to have a profound effect of bringing out his greatest virtues. He is the anti-hero who was not diminished by suffering, but instead made whole — reborn. As a leader, his actions seem more an outcome of a desire to serve rather than to control. Jin and other characters have undergone a comparable process.

But so far redemption of the heart has eluded Jack, for whom suffering has diminished him in ways terribly painful to watch over these past 5 seasons, to the point where he himself has become something of a cautionary tale, an example of “what not to do” or become. Even his newfound “purpose” (altering the timeline) feels more like the manic controlling flipside to passive detachment. Perhaps I am missing something, but it seems he is still being blown about as much as ever by the winds of his reactive condition. There is no peace inside of him; his choices are still hooked into (thus permeated by) the troubled subterranean roots of his unresolved “issues”.

Ultimately it’s painful because most of us (at least I believe most) want so much more for him. No matter how repulsed at some of his choices, we still care greatly about what happens to this hero who has been relentlessly deconstructed, systematically broken down without renewal. We long for a redemption that touches and heals the roots of all the losses and rejections that have so mercilessly driven him to the brink –a reconstructive process that so far has been elusive as the White Rabbit in Season 1.

And, confident in the as-yet unrevealed trajectory mapped by Lost’s exceptional writers, for this we need only wait for Season 6.

So. You’ve never met me, but “that’s how it is and there’s nothing more to say” about your amateur psychoanalysis of me. How does that trick work for you at parties, dude?

And I hesitate to correct someone so erudite, but your first sentence there makes no grammatical sense. The subject of the final clause is “you” (meaning me) and you’re comparing it to “romance”. I trust your major isn’t English.

Proust’s “Swanns Way”? Oh my. Honey, you DO need some fresh air.

There’s not a fixation with “mature relationships”– especially on television– nor in real life since so few people actually experience anything of the sort.

I’m not sure what you mean by “real romance.” If you’re talking about dysfunctional relationships built on sex or some aspect of attraction (physical or otherwise), cool, I get it. Whether one has a relationship like this or one finds value in this kind of relationship for the enjoyment of voyeurism or transference isn’t something that interests me (at least concerning fans). If you’re bored during the few months before Season Six, you should read “Swann’s Way” by Marcel Proust (if you haven’t already.) You will see an interesting treatment of romance and love triangles and the perspective one gains with distance. Then you might want to think about how some of the ideas from the book could be used to read the romances on LOST. I still think “Fathers and Sons” by Ivan Turgenev also fits this as well.

Then I’d also find a dictionary and look up the word “myopic.”

It’s so funny how people say there’s no time to reunite Sawyer and Kate on a show where islands can disappear into thin air and people can leap randomly between different timelines. Use some imagination. I hope the writers aren’t as stuck in the mud and boring as the nerd herd that dominates online discussion.

I can understand why the geeks think it makes sense that no one has suffered more than anyone else. They identify so naturally with Jack, even if its subconsciously, that they can’t tell the difference between people who are killed or have a child stolen or lose loved ones in horrifying ways and a spoiled whiney doctor who constantly makes mistakes and never suffers any consequences other than self pity. But just try to step out of the bubble once in awhile. I think Fish’s perspective only seems myopic to you because you’re so unfamiliar with anyone who doesn’t parrot the exact same myopic perspective you personally are comfortable with. You don’t see m the type that’s capable of thinking outside the box, but give it a try.

“Can anyone believe this whole mysteriious story would just be about one self indulgent rich guy who deserves happiness, while other people die and are tortured and suffer all kinds of things all around him?” Yes, I can believe this, because that’s Jack’s story: a self-indulged rich white man plays hero and leads thirty-something people to death. I don’t think it’s fair to say “this person suffered more” or “this person has a better story because s/he was not privileged.” If I’m not mistaken, just about every character’s story is about “his issues keep[ing] him from being happy.”

Kate kills her step-father because she thinks she knows what is best.
Sawyer is driven by the death of his parents.
Locke struggles with alienation (and a crappy father).
Jack is a crappy leader who wants redemption for all the suffering he caused– whether it be his father’s suffering or the deaths of O815 survivors who trusted him (Jack’s redemption story did not begin until after he was rescued).
Michael struggles with being a father.

I don’t think duty or obligation is a personal issue. The regret to successfully complete one’s duty is a personal issue.

I don’t find romance and sexuality boring. I find the surface level discussion of romance and sexuality boring.

And I still don’t think the final season will give Kate and Sawyer a fair shot at a mature relationship. There’s also a huge divide between what the audience thinks Kate should have, what Kate wants, and what Kate should have (that s5 episode does a great job of quickly discussing this). These things are not interchangable as the same thing. Who knows what we will see? I have no expectations.

The characteristics that I take from somebody that “settles down” is grounded, secure, doesn’t take risks, a planner, and confident in their choices which is why I suggested that settling would represent Jack because those are a few characterisitics I see in him. Now a person who doesn’t want to settle might be wild, impulsive, carefree, and takes risks which are a few characteristics I see in Sawyer. It’s really not that bizarre.

Now to dive into it a little further this past season I’m sure I wasn’t the only one to notice that her feelings for either one of them weren’t as strong or clear as in the past. Why do I think this? Easy the characterisitics that she may have fell in love with in both Jack and Sawyer were…kind of reversed. “The Incedent” makes this clear when Jack became the impulsive one, no real plan, and didn’t want to settle, where Sawyer was the content one in Dharmaville and didn’t want change, became grounded, and who wanted to settle. Kate gives Jack the same “who are you” look she gives Sawyer when Jack explains how he wants to continue Daniel’s plan and reset everything while Sawyer wants to leave the island and settle on the mainland with Juliet.

Hopefully it makes more sense.

I think those parallels are huge. Kate and Sawyer are the two whose relationship has always been romantic and sexual, developed step by step from the very beginning. Saying the writers don’t have “time” to get them back together is silly, IMO, because this is only part of the quadrangle they’ve EVER devoted serious time to. They themselves said they worried Season 5 would feel like a filler season, so to assume the Sawyer/Juliet relationship will keep Kate and Sawyer from ever getting back together, as the storyline seems to have been hinting at for a long time, doesn’t make much sense. We don’t even know what kind of time frame we’ll be dealing with next season.

Why else would Cuse and Lindelof have talked so much about Kate and Sawyer in the recap special before the finale aired? They mentioned twice that Sawyer’s jumping from the helicopter broke Kate’s heart and she took Aaron to heal it, that Sawyer seeing Kate deliver Aaron in the jungle was a huge emotional moment, that when the two are reunited “that chemistry just locks in for both of them,” and that this throws a huge wrench in the mechanism for Juliet and Sawyer, that Kate and Sawyer have the “emotional fireworks” that S/J don’t have, etc. Why say all that stuff about a relationship that has been given closure? Why not hype Jack/Kate if that’s where they’re going, instead of saying not ONE SINGLE WORD about them?

From Carlton Cuse in the DVD commentary for that episode -

“In the meantime, the parallel on the island is, she and, you know, you have Kate and Sawyer, who are these two characters who are obviously really, there’s this incredible thing happening between them, and yet both of them I think are afraid of, you know, this sort of intimacy and kind of connection, and they’re drawn to and also sort of afraid of the feelings that they have between each other at the same time.”

“It was great, I mean, you think about it, you know, in a show in a television show to basically go 55 hours before two characters who are in love with each other actually finally consummate and make love. It’s really amazing. And I think it was just as a starting point of the relationship really kind of deepening it and existing in a different level. It was really a great scene.”

He also said this in an interview -

“I think that Kate is going to really be an interesting character this year because she is going to finally make a romantic choice and a commitment. This is a character who has been very afraid of commitment.”

I find it very strange that you would try to define Kate’s relationships with Jack and Sawyer as being about running or staying put. So far, the only scenes where we’ve actually seen her stay all night in a man’s arms both happened with Sawyer. It was implied she must have done the same with Jack off-island, but we never saw it, so forgive me if I don’t think it’s all that important in the grand scheme of things. Real romantic couples have their intimate moments shown to the audience.

How come those who expect Jack and Kate to end up together always have such bizarre interpretations of storylines that weren’t all that hard to understand in the first place? This misreading of “I Do” is a case in point.

DM finds sexuality and romance boring, and of course he feels the need to take a few shots at FB personally. It’s so typical. Jack’s story is about how his issues keep him from being happy? Oh poor baby! Can anyone believe this whole mysteriious story would just be about one self indulgent rich guy who deserves happiness, while other people die and are tortured and suffer all kinds of things all around him? That’s not only a myopic viewpoint, but one of the most depressing I’ve ever read. That’s what everyone wants to see. The whiny rich kid get some extra presents while everyone around him suffers horribly. Jack still hasn’t suffered any loss or pain on this show equal to what almost everyone else has.

Since the nerd herd has drowned out almost every other perspective than their own, I can see why DM thinks this review is myopic. It doesn’t fit the mold that fanboys have decided lost has to be analyzed with. FB insists on looking at the show her own way. Imagine an original show like this being analyzed in an original way.

I don’t think you’re going to see kind of space necessary to tell a story in which Kate and Sawyer are together. How will Juliet’s (possible) death affect Sawyer? I think it would be extremely cheap and emotionally abortive to have the two jump into each others’ arms.

This also ignores stubbornness we saw between Jack and Kate in the latter portion of the season (and Sawyer’s advice that Jack just go out there and get Kate back); Kate telling Jack that not everything about the past few years was bad.

About relationship stuff being boring: I don’t care so much for the shipping. I have nothing invested in the triangle. I’m more interested in how Jack’s issues keep him from being happy (which is an interesting struggle– duty versus pleasure), Sawyer’s maturity and possible destruction, Kate’s developing selflessness, etc. And just because one finally choses does mean mean actually having that very thing. Romance will hang over these characters, but I can’t see anything but tragedy.

FB’s rewatch reviews have drawn information from every season. I don’t think I’m out of line by mentioning season five. And as I said, the only woman good enough for Sawyer is Fishbiscuit.

I agree that Kate came back to the island for Aaron and Claire’s sake. I don’t think anyone here is arguing otherwise.

This is a first season rewatch, not a run down of what happened in season five, I think I’d cut the Fish some slack.

But since I happen to agree with her take, I’ll answer you.

I disagree with you that the triangle is resolved. The writers have already said that Kate will choose and end up with one man at the end and the triangle will continue to the end. There isn’t a triangle if Sawyer is not a viable candidate. And considering the events of season 5, the wealth of build up of the previous four seasons, the fact that Sawyer never took his chance with Kate and thus their relationship never had a chance to be resolved (consult Sawyer’s lines to Horace in La Fleur), the fact that Juliet ended their relationship and Sawyer went along with erasing it before she died indicates to me that he is a viable candidate to return to his previous love. The first woman that he (“Mr self-loathing, brash conman, every man for himself” Sawyer) totally fell in love with.

Sawyer admitted they probably wouldn’t have worked out back then, he wasn’t good boyfriend material then. And Kate points out he sure seems to be good material now. Interesting no? Now that Juliet dumped him and wanted to set off a bomb because she couldn’t bear to lose him to Kate knowing he still loved her, and then fell down a hole blew up and DIED hmmm, it looks like he and Kate are in a perfect position to finally be on the same page.

They’ve both matured away from each other and had a decent shot at a different relationships which ultimately failed partly because of the other absent lover’s influence. I think the show did a good job of showing that despite his loyalty and commitment to Juliet, Sawyer’s romantic feelings for Kate were still strong enough that Juliet took note and ended it after a mere 3-4 days of the O4 being back. She saw the writing on the wall, and realised the truth of what her divorcing parents had once told her:

“Just because two people love each other, doesn’t mean they’re meant to be together.”

The same applies to Jack and Kate’s abortive attempts to build a life together off island.

Fate, (or the island) on the other hand seems to keep throwing Sawyer and Kate together. Their past connections. Diane. Cassidy and Clementine. The only two touched by Jacob as children. Sawyer saying he is finally over Kate because she’s gone. Then WHAM she’s back. Kate being thrown on the sub just as Sawyer and Juliet were about to depart. If I didn’t know any better, it would seem to me that the island is a Skater. *wink*

Perhaps we should be looking at a model like Jane Austen’s Persuasion.

Kate’s episode with the cop fiance defines her relationship with Jack and Sawyer. Except instead of the choice in love interests it was between settling down and staying on the run which happens to be complete opposite choices as with Jack and Sawyer. When she was on the phone with the Marshall, you can tell she wanted to settle down (Jack) but the Marshall knew that would never happen and she would always run (Sawyer). Picture and ending to Kate’s character where after years of being on the run, which is what is always portraited to us, she finally settles (Jack). Now that would make Adam and Eve more symbolic, especially with her quote “I don’t want to be Eve” meaning I don’t want to settle down, but eventually does.

If you’re looking for a model of comparison, I’d turn to “Fathers and Sons” by Ivan Turgenev. I’d also take a second to remember that Kate didn’t return to the Island for Jack or Sawyer. And Sawyer is pretty clear about how he feels about his past with Kate (it can also serve as a commentary about television romance and audience fantasy).

Not surprised the review again takes a very myopic view of one character (Jack) only to build another (Sawyer– I won’t disagree about anything written about Sawyer; he is a fantastic character. Obviously FB believes he should end up with her, so she has paid close attention to his development.)