And with a fade to white, it was over. The screen was the same white as my knuckles, which were clenched in tight fists as I yelled, “NOOOOOOOOO” at my television screen. Remember that ending of The Sopranos? This one was more shocking to me. (And by the way, I’m in the love camp on that Sopranos ending.)
But back to Lost. Yesterday was crazy busy; monitoring the blog, posting updates constantly, doing radio interviews where I try to explain Lost to listeners who haven’t seen it (and can I just say that unlike back in season 2, I can no longer do that in the “25 words or less” that radio hosts love to throw around). And in the end, I didn’t get a chance to post something here. What was I going to write that was in any way coherent? Aside from my original blog post on the episode, I posted on Jacob and who I’m calling MaybEsau; the Jacob’s ladder imagery we’ve seen on the show and how it plays into things now; the foot statue; and a funny clip of Matthew Fox on Kimmel. Hey, you gotta have SOME light moments.
So rather than a long coherent post on one topic, I think I’m going to post a smattering of thoughts, mostly generated by my brilliant readers, who kept the comments boards buzzing on my site all day yesterday and long into the night. These are all the things I didn’t talk about in my original post. Here goes.
· Several fans posited that Juliet was actually pregnant when she fell down the shaft. Which, of course, makes that moment all the more devastating. She holds her tummy tenderly in a few cases, and when she’s with Rose and Bernard, they look at her with a little more tenderness than the others, not just because of the state they can see she’s in, but maybe they know. And while I’m talking about Juliet, the main article on the Yahoo page yesterday was, “Lost favorite dies in finale” or something like that. And as I clicked on the link, I thought, “Who? Who died?” Because, maybe I had a different feed than everyone else, but I never saw Juliet die. I mean, she’s probably bleeding internally something fierce right now, but if Jack is right, and by detonating the bomb none of this will have happened, then she’s as rosy and healthy as the rest of them. And there’s a chance she’s not even on the island; if it was the electromagnetic energy that forced the women to become infertile, then maybe she doesn’t have to come.
· This brings me to a question that’s only formed in my head since Wednesday night. How does Jack/Daniel’s theory work? (If it’s true… which I doubt it is.) Is it that they can erase everything that happens after that moment? And if so, did the release of the electromagnetic energy before Juliet detonated the bomb (if that’s what that white flash was, and not a time bloop) mean they were too late, and regardless of what they do, the Swan will be built to cover the energy and someone will be pushing that button anyway? Daniel was pretty determined to get there BEFORE the energy was released, so I presume that its release means they’re pretty much frakked anyway?
· I’ve always suggested that this show will come down to free will vs. destiny, not good over evil (since no one seems to be clearly all good or clearly all evil). One of my readers, SonshineMusic, suggested that maybe while so many fans are focused on whether Jacob is good or evil, we should instead be looking at whether he represents free will or destiny, and if the other one is the opposite. In the Bible, Jacob believed in free will, and changed his own future by deceiving his father and stealing his brother’s birthright. Esau, on the other hand, believed in destiny, that the birthright was destined to be his and Jacob no more earned it than he did by doing what he did. If the Man in Black is an Esau character, that could be the dichotomy.
· Is it possible that Jacob’s cabin was never actually Jacob’s cabin, but MaybEsau’s? If MaybEsau has been the one in there this whole time, that would be consistent with him methodically conning Locke and Ben over the past few years to lead them to the point where he could take over John’s body.
· Here’s one of my own thoughts: All season long, every time a person dies, Richard Alpert wants the body and is careful to bury people deep. Is that because he’s actually hiding them from MaybEsau, so that he can’t inhabit their body the way he did John Locke? That empty coffin we saw in season 1; is it possible Christian was taken by Richard, who was intending to bury the body so Esau couldn’t get his hands on it, and Esau somehow cut him off at the pass and got the body? (I could speculate better if I knew how the hell this whole body-snatching thing worked!)
· One of my readers pointed out the link between this episode and The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, where the witch finds a loophole and stabs Aslan, but he comes back to life. If Jacob is a Christ figure like Aslan was in that book, that could be an indication that he will return.
· Another reader emailed me off the list to suggest Jacob was evil instead of good (an idea we’d been tossing around in the comments). He said if Jacob was evil, and by stabbing him evil was eradicated, that could be why the show faded to white rather than black. Great theory, although on Lost they tend to trick you, and the people in white tend to be bad.
· That brings me to Jacob meeting the Oceanic 5 and Locke. I mentioned this in my blog and have yet to read a satisfactory theory on it: Why does he touch Kate, Sawyer, Jack, and Locke before they get on Oceanic Flight 815, but he touches Sayid and Hurley after they’ve already been on the flight, returned, and are about to board Ajira Flight 316? If Kate, Sawyer, Jack, and Locke were all touched as a motivation to get them on the plane, what motivated Sayid and Hurley to do it, too? I’m wondering if the touch had nothing to do with actually getting them on the plane, and instead was some sort of protection for them once they’re on the island. Notice all of them are still standing (well, Sayid is just barely so…)
· And here is something I’ve been meaning to mention on my blog, and every time I rewatch the episode I notice it, make a point of mentioning it, and then don’t, so I’ll do it here. We’ve been discussing all season the idea of Smokey and when he first appeared. Some think he was an ancient force on the island, others point out that we never see him in 1977 or before, so maybe he was created post-Incident or post-Purge. When I saw the scene of Juliet being grabbed by the chain and dragged quickly backwards (not to mention hearing that same cranking sound we all know and dread) I couldn’t help but think of Smokey. This was exactly like when Locke was grabbed by Smokey – who loops himself around the victim’s legs or waist and drags them backwards quickly – or the scene where one of Keamy’s men is similarly dragged. And just like when Locke was grabbed in Exodus, Smokey tried yanking him into a hole, but he was saved before it could happen. Juliet is also dragged to a hole, but she’s not so lucky. Could Smokey have arisen out of the Incident? I don’t think it’s a coincidence these two moments look so similar.
· That statue. Earlier in the season I suggested it was Set. Male from the back, flat head. Then someone suggested maybe it was Tawaret, the Egyptian goddess of fertility. Great idea, and it would be perfect considering the fertility issues, but my only concern there is that Tawaret was in the form of a hippo to represent the rounded tummy of pregnant women, and did not have muscular arms like this statue. But she does have a flat head like this one, and is usually represented holding an ankh. After this episode, where we saw the large snout, one of my readers, Benny, suggested Sobek, the crocodile god, who brought fertility also. It’s a male statue with a flat head, and might be the most accurate one yet. But then a reader of mine emailed me this morning to say the ABC site is confirming that statue is indeed Tawaret. Did the production team never actually look at a picture of her? I’m not sure I buy that one. I wonder if it’s possible the statue could be an amalgam of different gods: Tawaret, Sobek, Set, and Anubis, all blended into one.
· One of my readers wondered if the fact Sayid is wearing Horace’s uniform should be a word of warning: After all, Locke will later find the corpse in the pit wearing that uniform. Could it be Sayid’s? Another reader said no, because those were the bodies from the Purge, and if they died in the 90s and Sayid died in 1977, then his body would have been on the bottom. But it did lead me to wonder if there’s some significance to Sayid wearing Horace’s uniform. They could have come up into any house and they came up into that one. Coincidence?
There is SO much more being said and going on over on my blog, but I need to post this and get back to other things (wait… there are things OTHER than Lost?!) I hope to post again in the coming week, but thought this would provide y’all with some fun discussion points. After all, we have EIGHT MONTHS to discuss it! Oh, and someone brought to my attention that someone on this site is organizing a rewatch party. We’ve been organizing the same thing on my blog for the past week or so. Mine will be starting a little later (beginning of July and going through January), but keep watching my site for updates, and we’ll have lots to discuss!
Nikki Stafford is the author of the Finding Lost series of books, which offer episode-by-episode guides to each season. The guide to season 4 is now available at Amazon.com, and the upcoming season 5 book is now available for pre-order. She posts regularly on her television blog, Nik at Nite.
100 Responses to “What Nikki Noticed: 5.16/17 “The Incident, Parts 1&2””
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Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere, though I’m sure it has been touched upon since there are always theories floating around, but the first thing I thought when I saw the fade to white at the end, along with the teaser for Season 6, is that the next season will have something to do with the theme of “inverted” or “backwards” or “alternate”. Both the fade to white and the teaser sported an inverted look compared to every single ending and teaser or trailer to date. The back text on white is the exact opposite to what has been shown for the last 5 years. It’s not just something new, something different; it’s the exact opposite.
Perhaps detonating the bomb, though I consider this to be the incident since it looks like the worst that would have happened without the explosion would have been a leak of electromagnetic energy which they could have contained, did in fact change history, but instead of erasing everything that has happened, actually just changed it so that alternate or opposite events now occur to everything and everyone post-incident. We saw the eye in the teaser which hints at Jack or someone else waking up in the jungle similar to the pilot episode, which suggests they might be starting back in 2004 when the plane crashes. Perhaps Charlie will be alive and instead Jack dies. Perhaps Locke is the leader of the Losties from the beginning. Perhaps It’s Kate that ventures off and first finds Danielle.
The next season may be kind of a rushed version of all 5 seasons put together but different and they have to figure out how to straighten everything back to normal which will lead to the end of the series when the entire TIME LOOP begins again.
What this has to do with Jacob and the other guy I have no idea, but usually the ending of a season is a huge hint to the theme or story of the next season. Our only clue this year is the inverted text in both the ending and the teaser.
This relates to my Event Probability post and it is in fact Jack’s eye in the promo.
http://www.sfu.ca/~bstooke/Event%20Probability%20in%20Lost.pdf
If Season 5 was REFLECTIVE of Season 2, perhaps Season 6 will be REFLECTIVE of Season 1?
Let’s not get too attached to the Time Loop stuff that made BSG so unsatisfying.
I think the Lost white-over-black, turning to black-over-white has more to do with the death of Jacob/Sobek, and maybe the rise of Esau/Anubis.
That said, I hope we get more eye-opening openers like we used to. Those were beautiful.
Jack and Sayid came up into Horace’s house, I think, because it is the leader’s house and will be Ben’s house when he takes over. As far as we know, it’s only one house that goes into the tunnels. I could be way off, but that’s how I read that scene.
I’ve also been wondering about the absence of Smokey on the Island in the pre-2004 days. We did see Smokey drag Montand down into a hole beneath the Temple wall in the late 80’s, when Daniel arrived, but we didn’t see any evidence of Smokey prior to that.
Did the Incident somehow release or create Smokey?
Wait, we saw a drawing of something that resembled Smokey under the temple when Ben was being judged. So maybe Smokey was always there.
But we don’t see Smokey above ground until he takes Montand’s arm. Right?
I’ve got to agree that the tunnel drawing of “Smokie” is the one thing keeping me from thinking that Julliet, the crain and the chains created Smokie. Perhaps we are simply presuming that the carving was of Annubis and Smokie when it was really of Annubis (definatly him in that pic) and Esau.
If you go back and watch the scene from “The Variable” where Miles took Daniel to the Orchid site to speak to Chang, turn up the volume and ignore what the characters are saying: just listen to the back ground construction noises. Listen to these noises before Daniel goes into the Orchid and after he comes back out and is speaking to Chang about being from the future.
I swear that unless I am just hearing things these background construction noises sound almost exactly like the sounds the monster makes. This is right inline with what we are talking about regarding the sounds at the Swan site in “The Incident”.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who picked up on this. I definately heard the sound of chains, moving machinery and the scuttling sound (a drill?) which the Smoke Monster makes, during The Orchid scene and again during The Incident. In fact, I was half expecting Smokie to come flying out of the shaft, past Juliet, in the last scene.
One idea is that The Incident creates Smokie or free it from some kind of imprisonment and we know that it can mimic the appearance of a character, why not the sounds of its environment?
Smokey is a complicated mechanism. He can scan peoples thoughts and memories and take the physical form of a human. So, the idea that an accident randomly generated smokey seems very implausible. There are many mechanical sounds that are used for Smokies appearances including the sound that comes when you print out a ticket/receipt in a cab (this specifically has been confirmed by Darlton, the ticket sound), and you would hear these sounds at any construction site, not just the Swan. Sorry, but I just don’t buy the Incident created Smokey theory. Doesn’t make sense.
Plus, Dharma has the sonic fence, already.
…and God knows how/why they knew to build that!
Great post. I do believe Esau/Mr.X commandeered Christian’s body and was fueling Locke’s faith. In turn, Mr.X was trying to instill faith in Jack – via Locke and via direct interaction/appearances to Jack.
What’s amazing to me and also very entertaining, is the fact that some of the Losties were responsible for things they later loathed in life….
Sayid – Before they flashed to the 70’s, he despised Ben Linus. Then, we find out that by shooting young Ben, Sayid in fact made Ben what he is later in life and partly why Sayid hates him so.
Miles – The one thing he’s bitter about in life is his Dad leaving him and his mom. Turns out, Miles and the Losties flashing back to the 70’s was part of the reason why his Dad sent him and his mom off, causing the pain he’ll feel through his whole youth.
Juliet – This is much less confirmed and more of a theory- Prior to 815 showing up, she can’t leave the island until the fertility issues are resolved. The desire to solve the issues and the even greater desire to get off the island kills her inside. Could the hand-smashing of the nuke ultimately cause the fertility issues?…leaving her own actions to cause her strife in the future? Kinda makes sense, no?
Nice allegories. An even more direct ones is how Jack blames others for most of his problems through his life when in reality it has always been his own issues (drinking, drugs, self-loathing disguised as father-hate). Now we see that even his problems he blamed the island for is really because he followed Daniel’s idea and detonated the bomb, which causes the Swan, which causes Desmond to one day not press the button, which causes the 815 crash, which causes Jack’s problems w/ the island.
haha…dead on. the funny thing is, no matter what Jack decided to do with the bomb, the incident would have still occurred, and he would still have the same problems in life. time to start looking inward, Jack. only there will you find the answers. i liked the scene where Christian says, ‘are you sure that I’m the one who doesn’t believe in you?’ totally hit the nail on the head with jack’s issues.
something cought my attention in the finale…jacob appears off island and touches jack, kate, sawyer, sayid, hugo and locke…but why does he show up when kate and sawyer where so young? sawyer was 8 and kate probably was the same age…
the only common thing i found around this six events, is that jacob´s appearences happen when our losties are having a hard time: he saves kate from the cops, helps sawyer finish his letter, tells locke he´s gonna be fine, incourages hugo to go back to the island, gives jack a conforting apollo bar, but…sayid…probably nadie wouldn´t have died if sayid was by her side crossing that road…did jacob cause this?
and speaking of this…dind´t benjamin linus say that nadia was murdered in los angeles by widmore´s people? has anyone thought of that??? i would love some explanation…
I think that Jacob was saving Sayid. He stalled him from walking across the street when the car would have been there. On the flip side, Sayid never would have returned to the island if Nadia was alive and maybe Jacob was just making sure he did what he had to do.
As for Ben, I think he was just manipulating Sayid.
I agree that Ben was manipulating Sayid. He didn’t believe Ben at first that Widmore had been responsible for Nadia’s death. Ben had to convince him.
thanks guys…
i think widmore’s on the side of Not Jacob, since it was Abbadon who put the idea of going on a Walkabout in John’s head.
I think Jacob was saving Sayid too. He was needed to come back to the island. It’s possible that Widmore or Ben had instigated Nadia’s death anyway.
Bodies and Burials:
Your thoughts on bodies needing to be buried echo my own theory, and I had been wondering that for quite some time. Didn’t Darlton make some connotation to “What is buried on the island stays buried” in a podcast a year or two ago?
As far as I can remember, the black smoke and/or man in black have only taken the forms of those either not buried (Echo’s brother, Christian) or those buried in very shallow graves (Alex). I think this is a very important piece of the mythology, and why it was brought up here and there. Remember Horace asking Sawyer “How deep did you bury that body?”
Christian’s body is another matter entirely, I believe. It’s only a theory, but I think Jack somehow goes back to 2004 just as the plane crashes. HE finds Christian, replaces his shoes, and, perhaps, buries him. (er… but maybe not deep enough
) It would give Jack a lot of closure, don’t you think?
I don’t think that Smokey was created in 1977.
I am not even convinced that Smokey is Esau/Badlocke/Darkshirt.
Now that we know about Jacobs adversary and his abilities, I am not sure that Christian, Yemi and the other
apparations were Smokey in disguise. Maybe Smokey is just Smokey, and Esau was all those dead people, including Bens daughter.
But anyway, Smokey must be from egyptian/macedonian times.
Don’t forget the drawings in the temple basement, and the cool Smokey delivery system down there.
This is ancient stuff.
In one of the podcasts from last year, the writers said that Yemi was Smokey in disguise. They also said that Walt might have been as well. I conjecture it was “Esau” disguised as Walt when he appeared to Locke in the pit, telling him he still had work to do.
I think that Walt spoke to Locke telepathically. If Smokie takes on a human form, then that person has to be dead. I believe that Walt is still alive in LA and going to school…as we saw when Locke visited him when he returned. I don’t think that was Smokie in a Walt disguise.
I agree. The Walt stuff is independant crazyness.
Jstlike the Aaron and Ji Yeon stuff will be.
Walt is in New York. Man#2 and Christian are the same. Man#2 and Locke are the same, this is confirmed in the dialogue at the end of the finale “you found your loophole” or something like that. Smokey has taken the form of Alex, Yemi, Christian, etc, al.
Man#2 is not Smokey.
When Ben fell through the ground in the temple, FakeLocke said, “I’ll get help” and ran off. After he was gone, Smokey/Alex then appeared preceded by the Smokey sound. Then Alex disappeared, and FakeLocke returned. Just like Superman and Clark Kent, FakeLocke and Alex were never in the same place at the same time. So isn’t that a very strong indicator that whatever was disguised as Locke was also disguised as Alex, and since Smokey sound came just before Alex, and we know that Jacob adversary is FakeLocke, then Smokey and Jacob adversary are the same
You say Roger Workman was found in the pit, which would make it likely that it wasn’t Sayid…
But wasn’t Roger Workman found in the Dharma van, by Hurley? Sawyer tapped his beer on the corpse’s head, and laughed at Hurley for assuming that his surname was ‘Workman’.
I may just have missed something, I can only vaguely remember the scene you mention in the pit. But if I’m right, considering where we last saw Sayid, I’d say that strongly points to him being the corpse they found…
Edit for the above post. I just checked Lostpedia and I’m correct. =) Considering the way Sawyer was treating the corpse, and the fact that Vincent tore its arm off, that’s a rather horrible image if we assume it WAS Sayid…
Roger was in the van, yeah, but Horace was seen in the pit. Sayid was wearing Horace’s jumpsuit.
Doh! So he was =)
Well, after the purge, Ben sees dead Horace on a bench in Dharmaville.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/c/c4/3×20_DeadOnTheIsland.jpg
And, Horace’s ghost in Locke’s dream says, “Find me and you find Jacob.”
When it comes to things that ABC does, the produces of Lost have said that sometimes they do things on their own and don’t get the producer’s okay’s first. (This is the reason why sometimes blurbs on the enhanced episodes are considered non-canon). So I wouldn’t rule out the statute being a different God.
Curious what you thought of the fact that Jacob made efforts to get certain people on the island, but he specifically warned Miles not to come through his Shadow of the Statue crew. What do you think is the significance of that? Will Miles somehow end up helping Jacob’s rival?
I don’t think Jacob had anything to do with the warning. I think they took it upon themselves because they thought Miles was being duped by Widmore and not acting in the best interest of the island.
Yes, what has Miles done that could make anything different. Or what could he do.
great article!
I believe that being the dharma leader, Horace’s house was specifically located near the tunnels. Like Ben’s house at new otherton, full of secret spots and chambers. Maybe is the same house? We have to remember also that that the cabin was built by Horace (wasn’t it?), so when did jacob/Enemy started to use it? Why Ben and Ilana believed that the cabin belong to Jacob?
Since Horace was the Dharma leader, it makes sense that Ben as the Others leader would take over his house (he probably called “Dibs!” right after the Purge).
If you watch “The Man from Tallahasse” and “The Incident”, in both episodes there’s a shot of John/Ben and Jack/Sayid coming out of the hallway and there’s a room missing in “The Man from Tallahassee”. Sure it could have been bordered up but I just don’t think there’s enough to confirm anything yet.
Jacob touching the Losties HAS to be some sort of way of creating an “antiloophole.” If he told Richard to build the Hydra Island runway then he obviously knows all about them leaving and coming back to the island. It would make sense he’d know about MaybEsau’s loophole plan with Locke’s body, too.
Also, being so dismissive of Ben as unimportant when he’s standing there with a knife doesn’t seem like a smart move for such a well-informed, dude. If you can touch a dead guy and bring him back to life after falling out of a window, I think you can manage not to get yourself shanked. Either he doesn’t die/can’t die, or his death becomes irrelevant because of what he’s already set in motion (resetting? partially resetting? just becoming undead?).
Either that or Jacob is just way bored and doesn’t care anymore and just wants someone to kill him already, but that doesn’t seem proper in the whole yinyang balance.
Also, if original Locke saw a white smoke monster that would be super awesome and I’d high five every object in my apartment.
I think Jacob knew that Ben would stab him, and just like Esau can’t kill Jacob directly and instead has to urge/con someone else to do it, I believe Jacob also can not kill Esau unless he has a ‘case’ or ‘reason’ to…which is provided by him being murdered at the hands of Ben. This will clear the way for a showdown, or the ‘war’ that Widmore spoke of. Widmore said that Locke had to be on the island, or the ‘wrong’ side would win. This certainly explains why. Either Widmore is on Esau’s side and is facilitating Locke’s death and ‘possession’ by Esau to further Esau’s purpose, or he is on Jacob’s side and is facilitating Locke’s death so that Esau can use the body to indirectly murder Jacob and provide Jacob with the reason to kill Esau (and predestination). Whew! That was convoluted but hopefully you guys get what I am driving at…Jacob has a plan, and didnt die in vain
Just wondering, is it possible that the force of the bomb neutralizes the electromagnetic energy in the Swan, in effect cancelling each other out? And if the Oceanic 06 & Co. flash back to when the plane was supposed to crash, will they still have their memories of what happened? (I don’t recall anyone suffering total memory loss after flashing backwards or forwards, except maybe Daniel and Charlotte.)
I guess what I’m wondering is (since I haven’t seen it mentioned elsewhere) is how much damage would the bomb do if it detonates so far underground? The present day Island that the Ajira crowd crashes on seems a much different place than the Island we knew from before (Dharmaville looks like the Others/Hostiles never took it over), so the timeline has changed, but at the same time it doesn’t seem like a place that’s been decimated by nuclear holocaust.
When Ben goes into his old house, the Risk game that Sawyer, Locke and Hurley were playing is still there, so it’s definitely the same timeline.
I think there is inconsistency in your article about women on the island. Everyone keep saying infertility in regard to pregnancy on the island. Infertility means you can not conceive. This is not the case on the island. Women can conceive, but don’t survive past their second term. It may not seem that important, but I think it huge part of Juliet’s future character involvement and part of the lost story line.
Shannon, I think you make an excellent point.
This also brings up something that has been bothering me: why wasn’t Kate pregnant after season 3?
The only reason I can possibly think of is that Kate would never agree to undo her child. However, that is not a story-related reason.
Yeah, wait a minute! She was pregnant. Waddup with that?
Kate was confirmed pregnant? Which episode?
I have a feeling this next season will have a lot to do with egyptian mythology. Check out my blog for my extensive theory http://imlosttheories.blogspot.com/.
The statue is identical to Sobek apart from the headwear; male body, alligator face.
Tawaret has a short, stout hippo body and a hippo face.
It’s more likely to be Sobek with different headwear.
Hmm…there’s a Dr. Who story called The Skull of Sobek, Dr. Who is a Timelord, there was a band called the Timelords which was an alias for the KLF, who also were in a band called The JAMs, which was an acronym for The Justified Ancients of Mu-Mu, and Mu is the ancient Pacific kingdom (twin of Atlantis) that some say is the Island in Lost!
It’s all starting to make sense now!
Nikki, this is an excellent article.
I wonder if the destiny versus free will is a parallel to the biological relationship versus love that has been illustrated so often:
-Shannon and Boone being connected without the biological tag
-Michael and Walt being biologically connected and bonded through love, losing that connection, then working to build the connection again
-Claire being tied to Aaron both by biology and love, but losing him shortly after his birth
-Kate lacking a biological connection to Aaron, but she has a strong bond with him through love and being one of his mothers (and bringing up the King Solomon reference, with her love for Aaron perhaps being stronger because she gave him up twice)
-Christian’s tenuous connection with both of his biological children
-Jack attempting a connection with Aaron, but ultimately failing, despite their biological connection
-What will Claire and Jack’s connection be – other than the one of doctor to patient?
The message that reflects clearly through all of this is that love is thicker than blood. Perhaps this is a direct parallel to free will trumping destiny?
I think the comment was made by someone else on Nikki’s blog, but it’s worth repeating here, about how Benjamin gave John Locke a knife to kill his father (although Locke managed to convince Sawyer to do the dirty work), and now it’s Locke convincing Benjamin to do his dirty work by handing him a knife to kill Jacob with (and in the bible Benjamin is the son of Jacob). What comes around goes around…
Please read your Bible before commenting on it. Jacob did not ’steal’ the birthright from Esau, he bought it fair and square. The Bible says Esau ‘despised’ the birthright. He showed no respect for his position as firstborn and that is why he sold it for a bowl of stew.
Quit painting Jacob out to be a conniving schemer. The fact that God approved of what Jacob did should be enough.
And as a Calvinist I ask that you please stop saying that Jacob believed in free will
And later:
“Much later, Isaac became blind in his old age and decided to bestow the blessing of the firstborn upon Esau. Uncertain of death, he sent Esau out to the fields to trap and cook a piece of savory game for him, so that he could eat it and bless Esau.
Rebecca overheard this conversation and realized prophetically that Isaac’s blessings would go to Jacob, since she was told before the twins’ birth that the older son would serve the younger.[7] She therefore ordered Jacob to bring her two goats from the flock, which she cooked in the way Isaac loved, and had him bring them to his father in place of Esau.
When Jacob protested that his father would recognize the deception and curse him as soon as he felt him, since Esau was hairy and Jacob smooth-skinned, Rebecca said that the curse would be on her instead. Before she sent Jacob to his father, she dressed him in Esau’s garments and laid goatskins on his arms and neck to simulate hairy skin.”
So there are two instances of birthright transition in the story of Jacob.
I don’t have a bible…
So much to comment on, where to start?
IMO this is Atlantis. The Atlanteans after the “fall” of their civilization (IE after the catastrophe that moves them in time and space) spread over the world and brought much of their ideas to Egypt.
Jacob is the good guy. He reminds Ben he has free will. The other dude is bad. Jacob touched people during his journies — marked his army — because he knew they all possessed certain skills, skills needed to fight the war which is coming in season 6.
Smokey is NOT a result of the incident. The ancient Temple had a grate and carvings dediocated to smokey, which most certainly predate the 1970’s and the Dharma Initiative. Also, smokey didn’t pull Juliet into the hole, it was clearly the EM.
I believe the bad dude inhabited the cabin. I also believe he has been posing as Christian Shepherd. Don’t forget he’s the one who said John Locke would have to die. JL passed that info on to Alpert. So the bad dude foresaw the events that were coming and wanted his “chosen one” to return to the island as an empty vessel he could possess. My only questions are — how did he get out of the cabin to possess CS? AND who’s possessing Claire?
So much stuff going on my brain is about to explode!
On the idea of Smoke Monster=Christian=Locke,
The night Sun and Frank got to the island, they were greeted by the monster in the trees (by the dock) and then by Christian. I believe this was the same night Locke was talking to Ceasar on the Hydra island.
Here’s my take on it.
The dichotomy of the show has always been Free Will vs Destiny, Light side vs Dark side, and ultimately those forces are revealed to be characters: Jacob and Esau.
I think Smokie was actually Esau all along. Smokie is dark, he can scan people, get their memories, take their shape, he can give probably also give visions.
Jacob, as the personification of Free Will, always tells people they have a choice.
Esau must have put ideas in Radzinsky’s head, that’s why he’s so stubborn (it’s his destiny to change the world he says). That causes the Incident, which brings Locke to the Island, who’s dumb enough to fall for EVERYTHING he throws at him. But Ben becomes very jealous of all this so he accepts to kill Jacob.
BUT… course correction being what it is, and Jacob not being an idiot, he brought the people he chose to help him on the Island: Kate, Jack, Sayid, Sawyer, Hurley, Jin, Sun, he even maybe revived Locke (he didn’t do it so Esau could possess his body I’m sure).
SIMULTANEOUSLY (because even if they are at different epochs, everything happens at the same time – real time vs space time in Faraday’s drawings) Jacob’s chosen ones simultaneously blow up the hydrogen bomb, which probably changed the past so Esau’s plan ultimately FAILS.
Here’s the only problem I have with Esau being Smokey AND changing into people, etc. IF Esau is all these things you’re saying why was he (as Locke) surprised when Ben mentioned his dead daughter told him to follow Locke? Esau/Locke would’ve known that he himself told Ben to follow himself. He didn’t have to say to Ben I don’t have to convince you that you’re going to kill Jacob. Matter of fact he would’nt have even had the conversation on the beach with him about following someone that wouldn’t let him see him. All he would have to say is go kill Jacob because Alex told you to do what I say. At this point Ben thinks Locke is in communion with the island so Locke dropping that on Ben would’ve convinced Ben even more that Locke was doing the islands bidding.
Because, he is tricking Ben, and it might be important (in fact, I’m sure it is) for Ben to CHOOSE to kill Jacob. He can’t REALLY order it. Ben has to want to do it.
I think he was surprised at the fact that all it took was a vision of his duaghter to remove his “free will”, and the expression I felt from un-locke was more “i can’t believe how easy this was” to influence someone’s free will.
Go back and rewatch the Mr. Eko death scene, knowing what we now know, it makes much more sense! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJBVEouoyhE
This was by far the best season of Lost yet, punctuated sharply by the best season finale they have produced yet. There is so many angles to theorize upon for this now that Jacob has been thoroughly introduced. I am currently in the process of analyzing everything and will put forth a comprehensive theory at a later time, but for now I do think that the show is putting forth the fundamental argument for the nature of humanity: Jacob, representing free will, believes that humans will ultimately “progress” if given the chance, while “Esau”, representing fate, believes that human nature will always lead people to turn on and destroy each other. Jacob likes humans, while Esau hates humans. If it were up to Esau, human beings would never exist and Esau could run the island the way he sees fit. It would seem like he may now have his chance. Will he command Locke to destroy everyone on the island or influence events thereof?
It does seem that the main characters on LOST die when they finally conquer their issues. The struggles, conflicts, fights, and all that finally has led to progress in characters such as Boone, Shannon, Ana-Lucia, and Charlie. Then they die, coming to an end.
The question is whether Jacob’s death is ultimately going to lead to a posthumous checkmate of Esau. While Rose and Bernard have quit the game and just live in peace, alone, Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, Jin, Sun, Miles, Ilana, Ben, and Locke have all been in conflict with each other. Charles Widmore warned there was a war coming. War is exactly what Esau believes is going to happen, which has happened countless times on the Island. Even a bunch of peace and love hippies in DHARMA couldn’t get along with themselves, much less the Others.
For Jacob to win, everybody has to sit down and ask themselves why they are acting as pawns in some cosmic game between Jacob and Esau, and quit playing. Maybe Widmore is wrong. Maybe there is a PEACE coming.
Didn’t Dharma and the Others already have a peace accord??
Leaving the game is exactly what Ben, and John wanted them to do at end of S3. Now they can’t quit cause all the survivor’s deaths we’re because Jack made that radio call. Knowing they can change it, it’s their responsibility to make that happen.
OK, been thinking and spinning about all this and trying to glean some clues for next season: One of the few open points that I can think of is when Candle is making the video and remarks to La Fleur. What he said I cant remember, but this video which was made has not been viewed by anyone. When was it made? From the current line of events it hasn’t taken place yet. Or did I miss something. Will have to view again.
(And why did chang/candle change his name?) Weird, whats the point?
It was never made. They originally produced the video to be a precursor to the summer ARG and potentially include it in the storyline. But after the financial crisis, the producers rewrote the story, so the video is not part of the story we see on TV.
Thanks for the clear up. I didn’t catch this.
I think it was in one of the podcasts, or some other fan-targeted release.
it was a comic-con video.
We know the video was a ComiCon video. But as far as its place in the show’s story… that’s where my comment comes into.
Oh, and like most of you probably think…next season will begin or end with 815 landing in LAX. Jacob and the anti-jacob will be visiting the characters to set them on the correct path again to end it all? Will it end only once? Jacob said he was”coming” Does he mean going elsewhere or coming back?
Do you really think it will be that simple? It may very well be, but it could also simply place the O5, Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, and Miles back where they belong in 2007? I tend to think the white was a time flash and not the detonation.
There was confirmation that the sound heard just before the white screen was in fact a detonation. The magnitude of it is unknown.
Cool. Where was it confirmed? What if it was both?
I’m not even sure. I’ve read so much already that it’s all a blur. Mind you, I should have said that it might be a deception. But on rewatch, there is a sound that sounds like an explosion.
The safe bet is to sit and wait 8 months!
He said “They are coming”, suggesting the group stuck in 1977. The bomb likely creates the proper conditions to send them forward OR it changes the events in a way that allows them to be on the island in 2007.
Simple? Maybe. It seems the correct device. But, the options are endless as to what will happen next. My theory way back S2 on a hunch (after purgatory was canceled out) was the island has always existed and is outside of time and was the primordial creation before man (therefore no “men” could be born because they do not yet exist.)…and that the others were the race of Enoch or quasi-angels. With all the Egyptian reference that ensued; Hieroglyphics, statues, Horace, false doors, resurrection, redemption, judgement… I thought that the island was the Duat. Now it seems we are introduced to opposing god-like characters. Egyptian gods literally? Seems silly.
A pair of these characters most definitely become the ‘Adam and Eve’ so we will be going back (was it 40-50 years Jack said) And they must explain Richard already. I believe he was on the Black Rock. He seemed really perplexed this season so he’s not really in the loop Jacob is in. We could go to 2500BC or 2007AD.
The biggest question is what ends only once? The loop? The best why to end the loop is for one of the feuding two never to exist. But what happens, happens. Right?
Rambling..rambling…
Juliet is pregnant, but didn’t know it until Rose asked her if she wanted some tea.
If she had known, wouldn’t she have continued off the island in the sub?
Juliet is not dead. I think her detonating the a-bomb was the same as Desmond turning the key, which probably set off an a-bomb. If I’m right, her next scene will have her naked
Could Desmond be her baby???
Will she get a tye-dyed shirt from somebody?
Someone mentioned above that Ben had said Nadia was killed by Widmore’s people at an airport or something. Well if you’ll remember Ben goes from the Island in 2004 to in the future when he turns the donkey wheel where he learns straight away about Nadia’s demise so he obviously would not have any information about it. Therefore he made up what he knew ie. manipulating Sayid to work for him.
So does Juliet become smokey, like some sort of angry ghost flying around the island killing everyone?
No. She goes through the same process Desmond did after he turned the key.
does this mean she will wake up naked in the jungle??? I am getting the dvd’s to see the director’s cut of that episode!!!
Eventually. First she will pop through time, probably having her baby and then ending back in the jungle, sans clothing.
What if the man we see as Jacob’s rival died (perhaps in the incident?). His soul is portrayed as a black mass of smoke with the ability to get into one’s psyche and even take the form of those who have died on the island. Now if this seems like it could be true, then why couldn’t Jacob have that same ability? This harkens to Claire’s dream (Locke with one light and one dark eye). We could def be seeing a Locke vs. Locke showdown next season…
Had the same thought, it would be cool if Jacob inhabited Lockes body that Ilana has.
Or what if there are two Smokeys? One would be Jacob and one would be his nemesis. I noticed the Smokey we see at the temple (Danielle’s group) sounded a bit different from the one we knew from the first few seasons. It also appears nemesis was trapped in the cabin until Hugo clumsily stumbled into the ash, so if you believe nemesis is Smokey and he was trapped in the cabin, then there was/is another Smokey…
Heeej Lostieees
(don’t mind my spelling and English 
i’m sure they both suck, but i’m Dutch so,… forgivennes please 
)
diffrent egyptian god’s.
if you are a muslim and now this stuff and i am wrong plieeez correct 
Okej The incident was, what i like to call Lostgasmic, over an hour of mindblowing scenes and action, i’ll tell you what i enjoyed
First of all the opening sequence was,.. well it gave me goosebumps waaaaaaaaaaaaaaauw.
Jacob was at harmony with the island it was like his domain, he went fishing and just chilled on the beach and watched some boat that was to arrive at the island, is this the blackrock ?? don’t know but i bet richard is one of the passengers, the guy that comes out of the bushes, is not evil at least that’s what i think, even though he is wearing black etc, it seems in this part of the show that he only has the islands best intrest at heart, and is trying to stop Jacob from ever bringing people in play, could these blackrock passengers be the first “people” on the island?
No cuz the dude said it will always be the same implying that he is either omnicient or whatever or shit like this happened already
now this reminds me of a story.
Bear with me, Lost is a mixpool of all sorts of things, not only are the persona’s so diverse yet all connected, they always end up killing eachother.
that reminds me of something very central in lost, Religion.
Now all those refrences about christianity and the Koran in ben’s shelf are kind of weird, not to mention the giant statue that is said to be tawareth and by some sources said to be a mix of
That showed me that the important part here in lost is science vs religion
faith vs freewill, now the opening sequence on the beach reminds me off the story in the koran, i’ll give the refrences later.
In the koran (can’t remember wich part) god created the djin, a ghost basicly that inhabites the earth but kind of in another dimension (whispers), they had freewill and where made of fire, then they became corrupt, they killed, polluted,… god picked a djin called ibliees he was a rightious djin, and became an angel amongst the djins, because he tried to guide the djins and put them back on god’s path.
God brought him in his kingdom and told him about his plans to create man, and ibliees said, you should not create these vermins, have you learned nothing, they will destroy and abuse, pollute and fornicate, they are an unclean and filthy race.
God said something similair to what jacob said, he said i know that wich you can not comprehend, meaning he knows of the good in people’s hearts.
COuld somebody reply
and could somebody tell me how long it’l take for lost to get back on.
I not muslim, but I’ve been wondering if the smoke monster was a genie(djin).
Hello Dutchy: i ain’t no muslim at all.. so i just can tell you we have to wait eight months to get right on track: on January 2010 we’ll start the Last Ride.
Ciao
I never thought of it myself, but I really like the theory that the statue depicts more than one god.
The carving in the Monster’s chamber is without question Anubis, and it would be weird for Jacob to be representing a female goddess such as Tawaret.
Hey I just wanted to point out 2 interesting references that the finale has recalled.
1. The incident itself reminded me of the monster Sarlacc in Star Wars – RODJ: a big hole in the ground that attracts everything;
2. Juliet’s fall into the hole was part of a hell of a cliffhanger: indeed, it recalls the scene of Stallone’s Cliffhanger.. hence.. A cliffhanger at square!
“Is it possible that Jacob’s cabin was never actually Jacob’s cabin, but MaybEsau’s? If MaybEsau has been the one in there this whole time, that would be consistent with him methodically conning Locke and Ben over the past few years to lead them to the point where he could take over John’s body.”
Right on. But he should be called “Fakob.”
I really don’t think history will “reboot.” Not only would that be a silly Back to the Future type situation, but more importantly: we just went through a full half-season of them trying to get back to the island. Why would they put them right back in the “real world” and spend *another* half season getting them back to the island?
1. There was a shaggy dog painting(on it’s side) in Jacob’s cabin. Easter Egg from the Disney movie(The Shaggy Dog) about an Egyptian ring which causes the wearer to shapeshift.
2. Jacob burned very quickly when he was pushed into the fire. Could Jacob be a phoenix and rise again?