Part I of this series examined the actions of Desmond in Seasons 3 & 4 in the light of Self-Consistent Time Travel. Part II is going to break down the time flashing introduced in Season 5, and examine them in a similar light.
Whereas the writers have made it a point to explain that Desmond is ‘Special’, therefore exempting him from the Rules and possibly invalidating the entire premise of Part I of this series, they have gone out of their way to make sure that all the actions undertaken by the Flashers (a most unfortunate nickname for the ones flashing through time in Season 5) in the past meet Daniel’s succinct summation of Self-Consistency, “Whatever happened, happened”.
Before we begin, let me tell you a story.
The Essence of Self-Consistency
Once upon a time mankind decided it was high time that they got their collective butts in gear and get the whole space race thing going again. To that end a joint manned mission to the moon was carried out. The members of the mission consisted of six married couples for reasons that the terseness of this tale does not permit me to elaborate on at this time. Suffice it to say, these six married couples found themselves on the moon just as a fleet of rag tag alien outlaws pulled into orbit around Earth and proceeded to obliterate the surface, thus killing everyone unlucky enough not to be on the moon at the time. Their work complete, the fleet of rag tag alien ships left orbit and returned to the void from whence they came.
The six married couples on the moon were understandably put out buy this unfortunate turn of events. Considering the circumstances,it was decided that their mission on the moon was in rather poor taste, and so they returned to earth to repopulate the planet, a task for which they were supremely fitted, being six married couples, as mentioned earlier, though not elaborated on at the time. Several generation later the earth was once again filled with human beings, though due to the unwarranted (and unsuccessful) genocide of their ancestors, the human beings that now ruled the earth did so with cruel efficiency and a really bad attitude.
You see, the tale of what the fleet of rag tag alien ships had done had been passed down from generation to generation. As a result the human race that sprung from the six married couples was really nothing more than a bunch of bullies and thugs, intent on never being victims again. And so, when they at last spread out into the galaxy, it was with a ferocity and malevolence unprecedented in the annuls of galactic history (which had been pretty timid up to that point). Planet after planet fell under the iron heel of humanity, until they finally ran out of things to conquer, and they found themselves the Lords of the Galaxy.
Eventually a Rebellion started among the subjugated races, and a plan was formed. Humans were way too powerful to oppose as things stood now, being the Lords of the Galaxy and all, so the suggestion was made to build a time machine and travel to the past when humans were all on one planet, and destroy them before they ever got the chance to spread out. The plan was set in motion and a time machine was built. The Rebellion gathered together a fleet of rag tag alien ships and traveled to the distant past. There they went into orbit around Earth and proceeded to obliterate the surface, thus killing everyone unlucky enough not to be on the moon at the time. Their work complete, the fleet of rag tag alien ships left orbit and returned to the future where they were distressed to find that nothing had changed. Eventually the whole bunch was rounded up and found guilty of illegal time travel and executed.
the end.
This story illustrates the essence of Self-Consistency. If you followed the logic of the story, or better yet, saw the ending coming a mile away, you can safely skip the next section free from fear of missing anything important. If the concept of a Self-Consistent timeline still eludes you, please read the following section carefully and see if it doesn’t shed a little light on the subject.
The Mechanics of Self-Consistency
Figure 1. This Illustrates the Timeline as a single line, broken up into past and future by the sliver that is the present.
A common picture of time travel that most people have is that of a horizontal line, a timeline if you will. This line is made up of a sequence of moments, each encompassing everything that happens in the universe in that instant of time. A person’s life can be depicted as a line, with their birth at the start of the line, it’s length representing all the moments in that person’s life, and finally ending with their death, at the end of the line.
Figure 2. This is an animation illustrating the principle of spacetime. The center cylinder is the sun and the blue spiral is the Earth as it revolves arount the sun. The Present is that slice of spacetime that we are aware of at any given moment. If you ignored all but the slice, you can percievethe Earth revolving around the sun.
The tricky part comes when time travel occurs. A person’s line (in time travel lingo, a ‘world-line’), which would normally stretch out in a straight line from birth to death, upon time traveling can be broken up and appear on another part of the timeline.
Figure 3. This Illustration represents what Locke’s personal timeline looks like when one considers his life on and off the Island, as well as his visit with Richard in 1954. All of Locke’s other time flashes have been omited for sake of clarity.
If their actions cause a change to occur, then either the following events in the timeline are altered to fit in with the changes, or a branch is formed, consisting of the results of the change, leaving the original timeline intact.
Figure 4. Here we see a representation of the splitting of the timeline as a result of changes made by a time traveler. This model is not sponsored by Self-Consistency.
Which of these options occurs depends on who you ask, but in essence, they both account for how changes to the timeline brought about by time travelers are handled.
Where Self-Consistency differs is primarily how it perceives the timeline. In the scenario described above, it is said that the actions of a time traveler can change the timeline. But what does that mean exactly? How does one change a timeline? To fully appreciate this question, we must first know what it means to change something. The act of changing an object implies the passage of time. An object exists in one state at one particular moment of time, a point on the timeline so to speak, and then it exists in a different state at another moment, or at another point on the timeline. It changes with the passage of time.
But how can this be said of the timeline? To change the timeline, time would have to pass for the timeline itself. The timeline would have to be in one state at a given time, and then be in another state at another time. But this scenario would require that the timeline itself would have to experience the passage of time, something that is only possible for objects within the timeline itself. For this to happen, the timeline would need to exist within another meta-timeline, and this is ridiculous.
As was so eloquently pointed out by Baalzack a poster in the comment section on Part I, to say that the timeline changed, that is aged, is as meaningless as saying that the Universe moved. The Universe is a concept within which things move, it itself cannot move. Where would it move to? Likewise, the timeline is a concept within which things experience change, it itself cannot change.
So if the timeline cannot change, how do we reconcile your occational patricidal/suicidal time traveler, a time traveler that tries to go back in time in order to kill his grandfather before his grandfather can conceive his father? The easy answer is that he can’t. The concept of a paradox within the Self-Consistency model of time travel serves, not as a potential foil in a time travelstory, but as an indication that a proposal is impossible. In Self-Consistency, to say that I am going to go back in time and kill my grandfather before he conceives my father, thus preventing myself from being born to perform the act in the first place is as meaningless and futile as saying I am going to draw a square with three sides.
It is intrinsically impossible.
Not because free will is impeded in any way, but simply because the timeline is unchangeable. Whatever actions you take in the past are an eternal part of the immutable, unchangeable history that you are impotently attempting to alter.
Perhaps now you can see why the Rebel aliens in the above story were on a fool’s errand as soon as they conceived of the idea of eradicating their human oppressors in the past. Since it was impossible to change anything in the past, all of their actions in the past were already a part of the story. Does this hamper their free will? Not at all. Their intentions were to obliterate all humans on the surface of the Earth, and that is exactly what they did. Their free will triumphed, but it availed them not, since it was trumped by their poor reaserching skills.
Armed with this understanding of Self-Consistency, let us apply it to the time travel antics in Season 5.
History of the Island
Indulge me a bit as I recap Season 5, presenting it in chronological order, incorporating all the actions of the Flashers as a single, unchangeable, self-consistent whole. The following recap contains some mild speculation for the sake of filling holes due to the show having not wrapped yet. This speculation is more than likely wrong and is only included to prevent the recap from reading like Swiss cheese.
Anyway…
Something knocks the Frozen Donkey Wheel off it’s axis.
Locke returns the Frozen Donkey Wheel to it’s axis, the result of which is a flash that sends Locke to 2007 Tunisia and the other Flashers to 1974 on the Island.
Some time before 1954 Richard is either made aware of, or comes into possession of a compass. The details are unimportant, suffice to say there is a compass that has a significance to Richard. In 1954 Ellie captures a trio of strangers claiming to be from the US Army. They are brought to Richard who has Ellie escort one of them to Jughead, the leaky H-Bomb. While Ellie is gone, a bald man named John Locke limps into camp claiming to be sent by Jacob.
He tells Richard that he is from the future and that he is their leader. As proof that he is from the future, he gives Richard a compass. It is identical to Richard’s compass. As further proof, Locke tells Richard to look him up on his birthday, two years hence.
Meanwhile Ellie and her charge, Daniel arrive at Jughead. Upon examining the bomb Daniel declares that it must be entombed in cement and buried. He ensures that if this is done, everything will be fine, claiming that he is from 50 years in the future. He and his companions, including John Locke with Richard, then vanish.
Richard complies with Daniel’s advice and buries the bomb, entombed in cement. In 1956 Richard travels off-Island and witnesses Locke’s birth. Later he visits little John Locke in his foster home, but the youth fails the Leadership Test, disappointing Richard who leaves in a huff and returns to the Island, where he meets young Ben Linus circa 1973, whom he tells to be patient.
SPECULATION ALERT! I am taking some liberty with John’s age with this next part. I feel justified in doing this because his age was never disclosed on-air, only in the script:
In 1974 two of Richard’s people go missing and he visits Horace to find out what happened. After an agitated conversation with Horace, Richard is approached by a man that claims to know about the bomb and says that he is waiting for John Locke. This is a surprise to Richard as he had dismissed John after he failed the Leadership Test. Given this new development, Richard decides to give John another chance and invites him to the Island under the guise of a summer camp. John is a 17 year old high school senior at the time, and refuses.
END SPECULATION ALERT!
Meanwhile Ben stops being patient and in 1977, a day after Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid show up, Ben springs Sayid and is shot for his troubles.
Somehow Ben survives being shot and harbors quite a grudge against Sayid. The Flashers do some stuff, the Orchid is built, there is an Incident and then in 1988 a boat full of french researchers is lured to the Island by the numbers broadcast. They rescue a Korean and reach shore where the Korean man identifies himself as Jin and the pregnant girl identifies herself as Danielle Rouseau.
The Frenchies decide to track down the source of the Numbers broadcast and Jin accompanies them. Along the way they are attacked by Smoky and Montand looses his arm. His companions enter the temple to retrieve him but Jin prevents Danielle from entering. Then he vanishes. Later, Danielle decides that everyone who emerged from the Temple were infected and so she shoots them. Jin reappears in time to witness this, and escapes from Danielle’s itchy trigger finger, and reunites with the other Flashers.
Eventually Ben grows up and in 1992 kills his dad and DHARMA in the Purge, thus assuming leadership of the Hostiles.
The crash of a Nigerian drug plane is witnessed by Locke, who is shot by Ethan while investigating the crash. Locke explains to Ethan that he has been appointed as leader of the Others by Ben Linus. Ethan finds this hard to swallow, and prepares to shoot Locke before he vanishes. Ethan reports this odd encounter to Richard Alpert, who is once again reminded of the Legend of Locke.
In 2004 Oceanic Flight 815 crashes, depositing, among other, the key players in the above drama on the Island. Ethan is sent to infiltrate the fuselage survivors, and he sends back a report of the same John Locke that he had seen at the Nigerian drug plane. This john Locke didn’t recognise him, didn’t claim to be the Leader of the Others, and so far has yet to display a talent for vanishing. Richard reaches the conclusion that this is the non-time traveling Locke that he has been awaiting. Word also gets back that this John Locke is a former cripple, having been just healed by the Island. This is just too much for the Others, they simply must meet this guy. So plans are set in motion, but Ethan jumps the gun a bit and is shot, putting a wrinkle in those plans.
Every now and then Danielle runs into the 815 survivors and not once does she indicate that she recognizes Jin. What is going on in her head is never too clear, as she is not a very forthcoming person as it is.
One day Boone is crushed in the aforementioned Nigerian drug plane. That night he dies and Arron is born, an event that is witnessed by a time traveling Sawyer. About this time, the non-time-traveling Locke is busy making a fool of himself banging on the hatch of the Swan, when Desmond turns on his spotlight. An event witnessed from afar by the Flashers.
Eventually, the Others manage to woo Locke over to their side and he demands to speak to Jacob. That doesn’t go too well and Ben shoots Locke. Jack calls the Freighties, who send the Nerds and the Jocks, who blow up New Otherton, kill Alex and Danielle, and force Ben to turn the Donkey Wheel, sending the Flashers flashing through time.
The O6 live crappy off Island lives and are eventually reunited on Ajira flight 316, which crashes on the Hydra Island in 2007. John Locke is resurrected, Ben is conked on the head, Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid are flashed to 1977, and Sun and Frank are shown a photograph of their friends as DHARMA recruits.
Newly resurrected Locke finds his way to the big Island and finally catches back up with Richard. Richard asks Locke what happened to him when he pulled that vanishing act after returning from the Orchid. Locke tells him all about his Excellent Adventure and about leaving the Island and dying. Locke tells Richard about being shot by Ethan and being patched up by Richard. Richard doesn’t remember this happening, because it hasn’t happened yet, so he goes hang out by the Drug plane every night until one night he finds a wounded John Locke. He removes the bullet from Locke’s leg, gives him the compass, tells him that he needs to get his friends back and to do that he is going to have to die.
Whew…
That is a lot to take in, and it isn’t completely exhaustive, but it serves to illustrate the point. None of the actions of the Flashers in the past changed anything, they merely played their parts in what was the history of the Island all along.
In just 10 episodes, there was a lot of time traveling going on, as the above recap demonstrates. However, just a few of them stick out as somewhat troublesome.
Daniel and Desmond
In all honesty, the writers gave themselves a back door with this one by claiming that Desmond is Special, and they are probably going to use it. I could explain how this event could fit within an entirely Self-Consistent framework, but the writers clearly intend that it does not. Besides, I have already dealt with Desmond in Part I and this article is already too long as it is.
Suffice to say it makes no sense from a purely Self-Consistent point of view, but I’m sure the writers have something up their sleeve, and it is pointless to speculate what it is at this juncture.
Jin and Danielle
Jin and Danielle on the other hand is a non-issue. The gist of the argument that this part of the story constitutes a paradox lies in Danielle attitude toward Jin in 2004. But we don’t really know if she recognized him or not.
According to Self-Consistency, Jin was ‘always’ a part of Danielle’s history on the Island, and what went through Danielle’s head upon seeing Jin is any one’s guess, but logic only allows for two options. She either recognized him, or she did not.
If she did recognize him, her reasons for not indicating this are her own, but it should be noted that she hadn’t exactly been a gushing fountain of information at that point.
If she didn’t recognize Jin, is this so unheard of? It had been 16 years since she last saw him. Her memory of his face could be fuzzy, and it wouldn’t exactly be likely that she would associate this newly arrived Korean with the same Korean she met when she first arrived on the island, no matter how similar they looked.
Personally, I think she did recognize him, but didn’t say anything for fear of being labeled a racist who thinks that all Koreans look alike.
It is a shame that there is so much ambiguity regarding Danielle’s reaction to 2004 Jin, because if she had only showed clear signs of recognising him during the first four seasons of Lost, no one would have a problem with this little bit of time travel flotsam, no more than anyone cried paradox when it was revealed that Locke told Richard to be at his birth, explaining the Flashback in Cabin Fever.
Oh, wait. Some did cry paradox. Hmmm…
Locke and Richard
In Season 4’s penultimate episode, Cabin Fever, we are treated to an interesting flashback revealing that Richard Alpert was present at John Locke’s birth. What a mind bender, that. How did he know where to be and when to be there?
Now we know. Locke told him to be there as proof that his tale of time travel was true.Since time-lines do not age, there was no ‘first time’ when Locke was born without Richard’s presence, there was also no ‘first time’ when Richard’s presence was not a result of time traveling Locke telling him to be there. Refer to the above recap. That sequence of events was the one and only way it happened. Period. Locke told him to be there, be was there.
Now that we got that out of the way, there are two other tricky points I would like to address under this heading. The Compass, and why Locke had to die.
If you paid attention to the recap, you might know where I am going with both of these.
The Compass
It has been commented that the compass exists as a loop, that is has no beginning and no end. This is rightly confusing and disturbing. The slight headache and nosebleeds you may be experiencing are normal and indicate that you are entertaining thoughts of a paradoxical nature. As explained above, paradoxes are signs that something impossible is being attempted. Self-Consistency does not allow paradoxes and therefore if the way you are thinking of the compass results in a paradox, or time loop, then there is something wrong with the way you are thinking about it.
So how should you conceive of the compass so as to avoid paradox? Like this:
Why did Richard give Locke the compass? He just told John that the next time John would meet him, Richard wouldn’t recognize him. John asked how he was supposed to prove himself. Richard gave John the compass to be used as proof. This strongly suggests that the compass holds some meaning to Richard, otherwise Richard could have picked up a rock and said, “Give me this.” The compass would only serve its purpose as proof to 1954 Richard that Locke knows Richard in the future if that compass held some sort of meaning for Richard.
Ergo, the compass had an existence prior to 1954 when Richard met with Locke, as seen in the recap. In all likely hood, as Richard sat in his tent talking to Locke, he had his compass in his pocket, even as he inspected the compass given to him by Locke.
I that is the case, then contrary to being a loop, like a rubber band, the world line of the compass simply featured two parallel strands for 53 years, starting in 1954 when Richard received the compass from Locke, through to 2007 when Richard gave the compass, the one he had in his pocket in 1954, to wounded Locke. After wounded Locke vanished, Richard was left with one compass, the one he receive from Locke in 1954.
The experience of the compass is no different from that of Locke when he saw the beam of light from the Swan Hatch. At that point, there were two Lockes, one banging on the hatch, crying like a baby, and one traipsing through the jungle, being all existential-like. For that matter, there were two of all the Flashers on the Island at that point, with the exception of Miles, Charlotte and Daniel.
Why Locke Had to Die
When wounded Locke asked Richard how he was supposed to bring the O6 back, Richard answered, “You’re going to have to die John.” And eventually he did.
But in what sense did Richard mean, ‘have to’? Did he mean that John’s death would be an integral part to bringing the O6 back to the Island? He couldn’t have meant that because his death served no real purpose other than being a stand in for Christian. Had Locke lived and joined the O6 on flight 316, he could very well have served as a proxy for someone else. For that matter it seems reasonable that any cold stiff could have served as Christian’s proxy. Why Locke?
If that is not what Richard meant, then what did he mean? He could have meant “If you insist on going through with this course of action, know that the inevitable outcome is your death.” Richard’s words were worded as implied consent. “If you do this John, you are going to have to die.”
Why so? Because, the conversation Richard was having with John was in 2007, after Richard had talked with a resurrected John Locke, the very one who told Richard of his death as a result of trying to get the O6 to return. Why do I keep saying that Richard removed the bullet from Locke and gave him the compass in 2007? Because Locke asked Richard what happened to him when the sky lit up. Richard said, “I didn’t go anywhere John, you did,” indicating memory of the event in 2004. Therefore, Richard removed the bullet in the future, relative to Ben turning the Frozen Donkey Wheel. I say 2007, because that is when resurrected Locke is on the Island and that is the only time Richard could have spoken to him and learned of his death.
Conclusion
In the end, Lost is a product of a team of writers that have an end game in mind. We, the audience have no idea what that end game is, or how it will be reached, so mistakes are bound to be made, and theories are bound to be wrong, in fact the possibility exists that every word of this article may be utter bumpkiss.
But then, maybe not.
I have faith that, with the exception with Desmond, and his as-yet-undisclosed role to play in the big scheme of things, in the end Lost will have told one of mainstream media’s few entirely Self-Consistent Time Travel tales. No small feat when one considers the difficulties inherent in spinning a time travel yarn that demands all the threads line up and that allows no loose ends.
76 Responses to “LOST: Self-Consistent Time Travel – Part II: Season 5 is Paradox Free!”
Leave a Reply
This site utilizes the Global Avatar standard developed by Gravatar. To set your avatar, click on the logo to the left.Return To Top
Microsoft Store
Wow! I love your thought process! Some of this is finally beginning to make sense. Thanks!
Still with you. Wasn’t clear on the explanation of the compass. I get that there were 2, but how did it become 1? Did it cease to exist in Richard’s pocket? What are your futher thoughts on this? Or did I miss something? I’m not going to reread now because that wore me out.
Richard had a compass. In 1954, Locke gave him an identical compass (the same one). They both stayed in Richard’s possession until he gave Locke one of them sometime in the future when he told Locke he was going to die. After this, Richard only had one.
That makes sense, but I’m not sure that ti’s the way it went down. Seems to me that it is supposed to be a single signifigant compass.
And this is why mankind must remain incapable of travelling back in time. We would confuse ourselves into oblivion.
Think of it this way. Somehow, Richard comes into possession of a compass. Then in 1954, Locke gives Richard a future version of the same compass, so Richard now has two instances of the same compass (let’s call the one Locke gave him Compass B, and the one he had already Compass A). Fifty-odd years later, Richard is still in possession of both compasses, A and B. He gives Compass A to Locke, who then travels back to 1954 with it (Compass A, as you can see, now becomes Compass B).
Richard goes on with his life, in possession of Compass B, which is now the only instance of the compass. Although Richard originally acquired the compass some number of years (lets say x) ago, the compass has actually gone through x + ~50 years (since it reached that point, then jumped back to 1954 and went through those fifty-odd years all over again.
Crap, guess I was beaten to the punch.
To clarify the phrase “parallel strand”, I found it easiest to think of the compass’ timeline as looping back, like drawing a rollercoaster loop back to 1954. Granted, the loop portion isn’t real since there’s no analogy for the non-timeline portion of the loop, but it makes sense.
if a timeline is a horizontal line, and you illustrate the compass’s path through time, you really should have two separate segments during the 50 odd years that the compass overlaps itself. But to indicate the motion of the compass’s world line through time, it is common to draw an imaginary perpendicular connection between the segments. This imaginary connection represents the flash.
Dang. I just confused myself with that.
Man, that’s what I’ve been thinking all this time (I wish). Excellent post.
Another great post and it should really clear a lot of things up for a lot of people if they read it. I have been following the time travel pretty clearly and have found it to be easy to follow the way it’s presented. Am I right in saying that their intent with time travel is really not to try and cause a paradox but to be used as a story telling device? Also do you think that the producers decision to not have Desmond go back in time was a great decision? Especially in regards to making the self-consistency make sense?
I think you are right, they are using tt to kill two birds with one stone. A. as an interactive flashback of sorts, and B. to as a plot device.
As for Des, I would have left all that course correction stuff out and just treated the consciouness traveling stuff self consistently.
but that’s just me.
I trust Darlton.
TPTB could not send Desmond (physically) back in time, or else the show’s “Rules of Time Travel” (i.e. Self-Consistency) would be null and void.
I’m still having trouble with the compass and perhaps I’m just not understanding correctly.
I get this concept that Richard has a compass pre-1954 of some importance to him. Then Locke shows up in 1954 to give him another compass (looking oddly similar to the one already in his possession). This is the compass that Richard gives Locke sometime in the future (2007, I guess). But that, in my mind, doesn’t solve the problem of where THAT compass came from. In either case, one compass or two, it’s a loop.
Am I mistaken?
I guess what I’m saying is that Locke’s compass has to originate somewhere. Where?
Ah, okay, sorry. I read a good explanation above. Richard really has to keep those compasses straight.
yup. give Locke the wrong one and BAM! PARADOX!!
If it helps, the number of Other’s canoes follow the same logic …
Pre-1988 – “X” number of canoes
1988 – Left Behinders flash (from ~2008 – Ep. The Little Prince) back to 1988 with the canoe
1988-2008 – “X+1″ canoes
2008 – Left Behinders take canoe from their beach camp (see Ep. The Little Prince)
2008 & beyond – Only “X” number of canoes exist
Word.
Except – why does there have to be 2 Lockes, & 2 Sawyers, etc… in the jungle the night the light from the hatch comes on when the left behinders are flashing? We never actually see two of any of them, we just see the scenes of Aaron’s birth and the hatch light from different perspectives. In fact, we do see the light come on but no one standing or kneeling over it as Locke does in the original scene in season one, so my question there is, ‘where is the original Locke’? We don’t see him. This is something that has been nagging me. Explanations anyone? Did I overlook something or am I just over thinking it like usual?
Watch “Deus Ex Machina” and “Do No Harm” and just realize that all the flashies are unseen wandering around in the jungle somewhere.
The original Locke is pounding on the hatch and yelling, we just don’t get close enough to see him. There are two of each of them because we already saw other parts of the Island on that night, so in fact we have seen two Lockes and two Sawyers on that same night. Same way there were two compasses or two of anything that travel back in time and overlap with the orignal’s existence.
If Kate had been left behind to flash through time too, then she could have been right next to Sawyer and watched herself with Claire.
2007 is not the only time Richard could have known that Locke would die. We currently have Hurley, Jack, Kate, and Sayid in 1977 all aware of Locke’s death. Any one of them – Sayid appearing most likely at this point – could run into Richard in Dharma times. Maybe Sayid’s still all truth-druggy, says he’s from the future, and mentions that Locke is dead.
When Richard says Locke will have to die, he might not be working from complete information.
There is definitely some wiggle room. My explanation is merely one way to look at it, and will no doubt be proved wrong eventually.
Thank you, imfromthepast,for this wonderful explanation. Alex, I think it is probably 2008, based on the information in three different episodes:
Ep 5-01, Because You Left: When Richard gives Locke the compass, he also tells Locke the Oceanic 6 are already home [2005-2008], so it doesn’t take place in DHARMA-time.
Ep 5-07, The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham: At the Tunisian hospital, Widmore gives Locke a Canadian passport issued Dec. 12, 2007.
Ep. 4-13, There’s No place Like Home 2&3: At the funeral home, Jack tells Ben that Locke visited him “about a month ago,” so this must take place mid-January 2008 at the earliest.
You bring up a good point that I have been questioning … How can the Ajira 316 survivors be in 2007 (as shown in “316″)?
The only explanation I can come up with is that the 316ers time-shifted (from early-2008 back a couple months to late-2007).
WOW! Loved your theory. I am so with you on Richard not being a time traveller. He doesn’t age. Why would he need to time travel?
I tried working the Richard/Locke encounters out like this a month or so ago but gave it up due to John’s birthdate.
IMO you were smart to let that go. Especially after seeing what happened with Charlotte’s age. Hey, maybe Darlton knows more of these conflicts with birthdates will come up, so are getting us used to them now. LOL!
Alex – I think you have a point, but I like imfromthepast’s theory way too much to consider. Hopefully we will find out soon how Richard comes to know Locke’s off island fate.
Thanks again for the great post! I cant wait to share it!
I don’t think we should be speculating Richard had the compass before Locke gave it to him. We never saw Richard with a compass pre-1954 encounter, or watched him have a reaction when Locke gave it to him. There is no evidence AT ALL of Richard having the compass before Locke gave him a future copya of it.
Which leads to the first problem… if the compass keeps passing from hand to hand, from Locke to Richard to Locke to Richard… then the Compass has no origin… which is fine by me… BUT… doesn’t the compass deteriorates? Doesn’t its parts wear off, slowly breaking, passing from hand to hand in eternity?
Even if that is a hole, I’m more willing to believe in that that in Richard having a compass before Locke gave it to him.
my take on this is that the compass time-flash-Locke had wouldn’t have any value to 1954 Richard if he didn’t have the same compass in the first place during their meeting in 1954.
That kinda makes sense. If Richard has an (assumed) identical compass in his pocket, you’d think there would be some strange reaction, like checking his pocket to make sure he did not lose his compass.Think the compass as, say a distinct looking pocket watch that had meaning to you for whatever reasn. Then here comes some dude walking up to you and he pulls out an identical pocket watch. Wouldn’t your first reaction be to check your pocket for your watch to make sure you didn’t drop it somewhere. And if it is indeed still in your pocket, wouldn’t ypu pull it out a say WTF? Or at least say “cool! Just like mine!”?
So can the same object (person) exist at two points on the time line? Are there two sets of Flashers on the Island when Aaron is born and Locke sees himself seeing the light?
So then why don’t Sayid, Kate, Jack, etc, remember being on the Island when 815 crashes there?
First part:One set of flashers, one set of “haven’t flashed yets, but will.”Second part:Because they are in 1977. In order for them to remember witnessing the 815 crash, they will have to live there until 2004. I dunno, that question kind of confused me.
You need to separate the sequence of events you witness as a viewer of a TV show from the sequence of events lived by the characters of that show.
From Jack’s point of view, he lived his life in California through the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, got on a plane in 2004, crashed on the island, did some stuff there, left the island with the rest of the Oceanic 6, screwed up his life back in California, got on another plane in 2007, and found himself back on the island in 1977. From Jack’s point of view, his first arrival on the island was in 2004. From the island’s point of view, he visited once in 1977 (as a 37 year old), and again in 2004 (but as a 34 year old!).
All this is assuming the self-consistency model is being followed. I’m still troubled by that picture of 1977-vintage Jack, Hurley, Kate hanging on the wall in Dharmaville that no one noticed or bothered to remark upon in Seasons 1-4 of the show.
Simple explanation: Because they hadn’t been on the Island yet, from their perspective.
Complicated explanation: Jack is say, 35 in 2004 when he crashes. He would be 35 still when leaving on the helicopter, and he would be 38 when Ajira 316 comes back to the Island. Only now, he’s in 1977. He has 38 years of memories, and 3 of those years are of the Island. Time passes from 1977 to 2004. 35 year old Jack crashes on the Island. He’s never been there, from his perspective.
Hmmm…OK. I can buy the compass explanation, but I’m still not buying that Faraday’s instrument settings aren’t an ontological paradox explainable only by Desmond’s “specialness.”
Even with the incredibly thoughtful and thoroughly convincing explanation I put forth in response to your comment in my last article!?
Astounding!
the compass was given to locke by 2007 richard to give to 1954 richard so he could in turn give it to young locke to be identified by him in the 60s, as seen in cabin fever. you are working on an assumption that the item was chosen because it meant something to richard in 1954. what if it simply took on its meaning after it was given to him by locke in 1954 and richard knew locke would give him the compass in 2007 se he made sure he had it.
are you sure there are 2 compasses (in 1954 at least)?
because i am not.
of course that does leave the origin of the compass up in the air, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t an origin point, it just means we havent seen one yet. we might, or we might not. didn’t John Locke give sayid a compass in season 1?
There has to be. In 1954 the future compass would have no significance to Richard without the existence of a present compass. Locke hadn’t given it to him yet.
Consider this. Tomorrow I walk up to you, give you a wrist watch, and tell you I am from the future. The wrist watch doesn’t have any significance to you. Now, if you had been given an identical wrist watch as a gift for Christmas, and I handed you the wrist watch, you would be more inclined to believe my story.
There has to be two compasses.
im sorry, but i am still unconvinced that the compass was significant to richard alpert in 1954. if we were in a place that was as isolated as the island was, and you knew my name, if you told me you would see me again and gave me the watch, then chances are good i would probably hold onto it so i could test that theory if i ever saw you again.
the compass was to prove john locke was who he said he was, which failed, which is why richard was upset when locke chose the knife over the compass.
I kind of like the idea that it WAS that same compass that Locke gave Sayid way back in Season One. Sayid thought it worthless because it didn’t seem to work properly because of the bizarre nature of the magnetic anomoly (the Swan, I’m guessing) and threw it away. Richard found it or someone else found it and gave it to Richard sometime between 2004 and 2007.
Why Richard found it initially interesting in 1954 could easily be explained later in the series. Heck, everyone gets bizarre precog dreams on Craphole Island, why not Richard Alpert?
And that’s not even taking into account that it’s probably his “job” to be on the lookout for strange stuff.
RWG (thus his fascination with youngBen when he claimed to be following his dead mother)
this idea also explains why you can’t go back in time and kill Hitler. If you could he would have died and there would be no reason to think you should go back and kill him now.
Since we know that no one did kill him, any attempt to kill him now would be certain to fail.
Since “whatever happened, happened”
Thanks to all the kind commenters here, you are the best.
That was a long article (4200 words! Get it? 42?) and as a result, I didn’t proof read it too many times. So, if there are some points that you feel were not covered well enough, let me know and I will post a follow up article.
BTW, in case you didn’t notice, I tried my best to be more cordial and polite in this article as opposed to my natural tendency toward dry, unrelenting sarcasm and condescending arrogance. Let me know what you think.
Also, I have added a few visual aides to the article, scan through and check them out. My hope is they help clarify some of the points I was trying to make. Again, if there is a point you would like me to provide a visual aide for, let me know and I will see what I can do.
Thank you all for your support and interest.
Namárië
Imfromthepast, great article. nice work.
I still have a problem with your explanation though.
I don’t know, maybe I am stupid. The thing is, why wouldn’t there be a first time in which Richard doesn’t meet up with Locke in 1954??? It is clear to me that Locke had to be born and then crash in order to go back to 1954.
Your explanation states that we forget about there being a “first time”… but how?
I am not even casting a shade of doubt that ALL what Sawyer, Juliet and Co did in their flashes is self consistent with what we see in the future of the island. I think the writing has been perfect. BUT I still think you can’t forget about that first time, unless time is not linear, in which case everything happens at the same time, in case we wouldn’t be talking about a “timeline” in the first place.
When you use the phrase ‘First time’ when speaking about the timeline, you are implying that the timeline itself passes through time. As explained in the article, this is meaningless.
Since the timeline itself is ageless, in a way it can be said that everything on it happens at the same ‘time’, in the sense that because the timeline doesn’t age, none of the points along it exist in different times, they are only separated by distance along the timeline.
Like if you drew two dots on a sheet of paper, no matter what you do with the paper, no matter how you move it through space, the distance between the dots remain the same.
“BTW, in case you didn’t notice, I tried my best to be more cordial and polite in this article as opposed to my natural tendency toward dry, unrelenting sarcasm and condescending arrogance. Let me know what you think.”
I DID notice…very nice improvement! Thank you!
See, you really are a nice guy after all…
enjoy it while it lasts…
Whether it be from my slide toward sleep-deprived senility, or from my ever-loosening grip on vocabulary and the english language, you’ve managed to explain all of the paradox-free time travel thoughts that were festering in my mind, but I’ve never found ability to explain without blood gushing from nose, one eye crossing, and my eventual keyboard faceplant.
It’s nice being able to read a pseudo-scientific article and say “YES. THIS.” over and over.
Awesome, awesome article.
I too suspected that Sawyer’s meeting with Alpert in 1974 may have caused the contact with Teenage John Locke. The dates and ages seem a bit off, but in terms of storyline, it would fit perfectly.
I glossed over that point for the sake of brevity, so I’ll expand on my thought process here.
John was born may 30, 1956. The script for Cabin Fever gives his age as 16, placing the flashback in the 1972-1973 school year since John would have been 16 from May 30, 1972 to May 29, 1973. This would preclude Mittelos’s outreach being a result of Richard’s conversation with Locke.
However, if we ignore the date given in the script, which wasn’t given on the air, and assume Locke was 17 at the time, this would mean it happened during the period of May 30, 1973 to May 29, 1974. Assuming Sawyer’s conversation with Richard occurred early in 1974, then Richard could conceivably return to the mainland and make the offer to 17 year old Locke before the school year was up in 1974.
More than likely this is not the case, and I only put it out there as an interesting reading of the events.
For all we know, Richard’s offer in 1973 was a result of meeting young Ben somehow. Perhaps meeting Ben, and considering him as the new leader caused Richard to try Locke one more time, and when that fell through, he chose Ben.
The writers also gave themselves an out when it comes to fine-tuning the various dates and events. Remember Faraday’s rocket experiment from last season? Even when the island has not been “moved,” you can alter your subjective time depending on the trajectory you use to move to and from the island. So when Lefleur told Juliet it was 1974 on the island, it might have really been 1973 or some other date on the mainland.
I just got the feeling that childLocke “failed” the first test only in that he “wasn’t ready” at the time. I mean, he got two out of three (including the all important compass) right in Alpert’s eyes and only “failed” when he picked the knife, which we all know was extremely correct, but that Alpert was unaware of it at the time.
I don’t know that the second offer really had anything to do with Sawyer’s meeting with Alpert in ‘74, though it would certainly be cool if the numbers worked…then, again, they may have been meant to, but the producers screwed up on the timing, just like the screw up on a lot of stuff that gets glossed over…
RWG (but I felt that Alpert never really “gave up” on Locke, he was just being “paitent”
Thanks for article! Very well done! I’m just curious how we should go about interpreting the origin of the Orchid Rope? Was the rope always there prior to time flashes?
After Sawyer & Co. flashed back to the Era of the Statue, he would have taken the rope back with him and then left the rope behind when they flashed forward to 1974. So yes, conceivably someone could have found the rope many years later and put together that it was marking something. I’m reasonably sure that the rope left behind with the Statue did not survive to be used for the well that John descended.
a rope was made and then used in the well. It was then flashed to a point prior to the digging of the well. someone found it and dug it up, casting the rope aside to rot and dug the well. a rope was made and then used in the well.
Very neat.
A couple of comments.
One, why must it be that sometime pre-1954 Richard possesses the compass (or compass of exactly similar makeup)? Could it not simply be that Jacob/the Island/someone else portends to Richard that he will be given A compass by the other’s leader? Doesn’t that seem to jive easier in terms of likelihood and the self-consistency of the compass?
Also, the rules governing time “flashing” in the Lost universe seem to state that whatever object the FLASHER is physically touching flashes with him/her. The outrigger or the Zodiac flashes with the flashers, the rope leading to the frozen donkey wheel, the rifles they carry, the compass… et al. The beach camp and all provisions do not. Other physical objects do not. At the time that Richard receives the compass from John Locke (1954) Locke has relinquished possession of said compass and disappears (flashes)… The compass cannot disappear with him as that would violate the implied rule governing physical objects and the flashers.
Furthermore, which compass are you implying Richard brought to Locke’s foster home circa 1960something? It seems to me it was implied that the compass was given to Locke by Richard in 2007 or later (depending on when you believe that flash arrived at) Locke then proceeded to give it to Richard in 1954 only to have Richard ask a young John Locke in 1960something whether he thought it might belong to him. Why would the compass in Richard’s pocket that existed pre-1954 simply vanish with wounded Locke?
If there are no first-times because the timeline is ageless and everything that has happened or will happen is occurring all at once, then why must the compass have an origin? There could be no timeline when it simply existed from origin to 2007+ when Richard gave it to Locke and it began it’s Excellent adventure…
I foresee that I will have to write an article just about the compass and the rope.
Yes. I believe you will.
i agree with the rope idea.
i just don’t see why the compass HAS to be significant to alpert, as alpert thought it was supposed to be significant to locke … which is why he presented it to him as a test in the 60’s. and therefore, i dont see why there HAS to be 2 compasses. i understand that there CAN be, but not why there absolutely WAS.
Locke told Richard that he (Richard) gave him (Locke) the compass, so why would Richard think the compass would be significant to a young Locke?
Richard did not know time-travel was possible in 1954, so when he visits Locke two years later, he may be unaware of how the rules work. He may be trying some things out. It is clear, with his later attempts at recruiting LOST, that the result of the Dalai-Lama test weren’t definitive. He’s just trying things out.
Well, I don’t know WHY he would believe the compass was significant to a young Locke, but he obviously DID think it significant enough to bring it with him as part of the “test”
RWG (I’m hoping we get more explanation of this “Dalia Lama” test thing sometime)
Just when I thought I was out… they pull me back in.
F***!
The compass looked like it was really old to me…what if it was eventually found by Locke or whomever at the Black Rock wreckage, sometime in the future or past (in the Island’s timeline), and then Locke gives it to Richard. That would solve the paradox, would it not? So long as the compass arrived on the island with the Black Rock, it would exist on the island prior to Locke giving it to Alpert in 1954. We’ve seen that two versions of the same person can exist on the island, so two versions of the compass could as well.
I’m also not convinced that the compass was significant to Richard when Locke gave it to him. I think Richard was more intrigued by the things Locke said to him, especially the mention of Jacob, than the actual compass. Rather than the compass already holding significance to Richard, it seems like Richard has been trying to provide the compass with some significance since he received it. The look on his face when Locke doesn’t choose it during his ‘test’ shows that. He may spend the entire time from 1954 onward wondering how the compass fits with John Locke, only to find (in whichever year it ends up being) that its whole purpose was for Richard to give it to Locke.
If any of that makes sense.
Sorry, I meant “We’ve seen that two versions of the same person can exist on the island at the same time.”
your explanation makes sense and i know what you are suggesting, but the idea itself makes little sense. it makes the whole compass pointless.
I’m curious if you read a post regarding the rope, that essentially said, ‘what if the rope being stuck in the ground (via Sawyer holding it), was the impetus later on for someone finding the rope and deciding to dig a well to see what the hell the rope was for?’
I for one did read that post and I thought it was fascinating. However, the WHEEL did exist PRE-well, as Locke was buried down below when the Statue was standing intact and the rope was buried deep in the earth, so somehow, someone built that wheel before the rope was found in the ground, the well was dug and the orchid built.
So the rope may indeed have led someone to dig the well to the frozen donkey wheel, but it did not lead to the construction of the frozen donkey wheel itself. What if the wheel has existed since the beginning of the island, like perhaps it is the gearbox for the whole alien timeship… The natives could have discovered the rope and dug the well. What if the idea of the natives is misleading in itself? Perhaps they existed long before the Black Rock but were not the first inhabitants of the island.
Can anyone recall if the pillar with hieroglyphics was present when Locke turned the frozen donkey wheel?
On an unrelated note, I’d like to offer that perhaps the captain of the Black Rock had foreknowledge of the island’s existence as it seems apropos that it was christened “the Black Rock” and arrived in the center of a massive electromagnetic Black Rock.
I agree… I’ve been thinking since day 1 seeing that compass that it came from the Black Rock. I do not think that what you are suggesting renders the compass meaningless either.
Let’s just say for instance that both Charles Widmore and Richard Alpert were part of the crew of the Black Rock (Stay with me.) Magnus Hanso is the captain, Alpert a first mate and Widmore a swabbie (at age 17.) The compass belongs to Hanso. Something happens after they arrive on the island. Hanso is killed* (note ‘killed’ not ‘dies of natural causes.’) Richard and Widmore do not because after you are indoctrinated on the island (enter the temple, perform a raindance for smokey) you do not die of natural causes (entirely plausible and long a theory of mine.) You do not age. Widmore stays 17. Widmore is banished from said island by way of frozen donkey wheel a la Benjamin Linus. He ages… rapidly. As does Eloise Hawking. Richard remembers the compass from the Black Rock. Voila.
MAJOR HOLES! you say…. Yes. Why does the compass travel into the future to Richard to give to John Locke in the jungle? We don’t know, but this could still be explained.
How is it that Ben seems to age from being a young boy to being the 50 year old adult we know him as today? Perhaps because he has never been accepted by the island, the same reason that he had a spinal tumor and was stricken to a wheelchair while the island is healing John Locke and RAISING HIM FROM THE DEAD.
I dunno, in all honesty, ever since “the Constant” & “the Shape of Things to Come” and perhaps since the first time we laid eyes on the Black Rock, I wanted there to be a real tangible connection to the present. I wanted to see a flashback to the Black Rock’s arrival. I wanted to believe that Richard or Widmore or Jacob or Christian or someone was ON that ship. I’m betting that in the next few episodes this theory will be dead because we will learn more about Widmore leaving the island.
Absolutely a wonderful read. I hope it is as satisfying to you knowing that this article is appreciated as it was for me reading it. I look forward to part 3.
Dwaine Stroud
Athens, AL
This is one of the best explanations of the “Whatever Happened, Happened,” side, though I’m leaning that way. But I’d never have half the patience to spend all this time and effort to explain it
A few comments.
Re: Danielle and Jin, IIRC, she didn’t have a whole lot of face time with him, maybe not enough to recognize him in her addled mind.
When she first approached the Lostaway camp in Season One with all the “Other talk,” he was on the raft.
The only real time we know for certain they shared face time were in “Greatest Hits” when she and Jack were showing off the dynamite and in that episode in Season Four where pretty much everyone was choosing sides to go with Locke or Jack. And in both of those episodes, there were so many people mulling about that chances are good that she may not have even noticed him.
And though it’s slightly OT for this, I want to take this space to push my “Locke is like Desmond” theory because there are just some things that still don’t sit well with me about some bits we’ve seen. Unless you want to buy into the psychic or “reincarnation” thing, the childLocke scenes in “Cabin Fever” don’t make a whole lot of sense unless Locke’s consciousness is jumping around on some level.
Exactly HOW did he recognize the compass and sand and knife?
What’s up with the smoke monster pic? The producers certainly made a big deal out of it, something I doubt they would’ve done if it was supposed to be just a big coincidence.
RWG (and Locke was, like Desmond, at ground zero when Des turned the failsafe key)
Thanks for the excellent time explanation. However, I still have a question: How could Faraday warn child Charlotte to leave the island, as he himself came was the one who said “whatever happens, happens?” Which may lead us to the question of at what point in Faraday’s life is he with Charlotte when she dies? She makes it sound like a similarly aged/older version of him had squared her as a child, but wouldn’t Faraday only have done that after experiencing her death? Doesn’t that contradict his own quintessential statement or am I missing something?
Sorry, a few typos. To make my question clearer-
If Faraday believes without fail “whatever happened happened,” why does he warn child Charlotte to leave the island? He would presumably only do that if he knew what was going to happen to her. For him to know what was going to happen to her, he would have had have already experienced her death and thus, have traveled to the past on his personal timeline when he warns her. So unless he later on learns of a way to change what happened/will happen, or I’m missing something else, how is this consistent with the Theory of Self-Consistent Time Travel?
Last correction-Sorry, a few typos. To make my question clearer-
If Faraday believes without fail “whatever happened happened,” why does he warn child Charlotte to leave the island? He would presumably only do that if he knew what was going to happen to her. For him to know what was going to happen to her, he would have had have already experienced her death and thus, be warning her in her past, but his future (from the time of her death). So unless he later on learns of a way to change what happened/will happen, or I’m missing something else, how is this consistent with the Theory of Self-Consistent Time Travel? The only other thing I can think of is that he was delirious with grief and disregarded the rules because of that-
Love the article, but I think I see a problem in the “Newly resurrected Locke….” paragraph in the “History of the Island” section. By the time Locke returns on Flight 316, his being shot by Ethan and patched up by Richard HAS already happened, because Ethan was killed by Charlie sometime during the three months following the original Oceanic 815 crash. Ethan’s reaction to Locke at the plane suggests that he doesn’t even recognize him, which means that Locke was shot by Ethan during a time-flash that placed Locke sometime before the Oceanic 815 crash.
UNLESS…Arija 316 has travelled to the past and we just haven’t been filled in on that tidbit yet. Then Locke could tell Richard about his Excellent Adventure as you described.
Ethan shooting Locke happened on the day the Nigerian plane crashed, then Locked flashed to an undetermined time and got healed by Richard. I posit that Locke getting patched up by Richard will take place post Ajira crash.
Based on preview clip #4 for Follow the Leader, I suspect I am going to be vindicated on this point tomorrow.
[...] all the above sounds like circular logic, I refer you to the story I told in Part II of this series. That story involved a group of aliens obliterating all life on earth in order to [...]
[...] all the above sounds like circular logic, I refer you to the story I told in Part II of this series. That story involved a group of aliens obliterating all life on earth in order to [...]
Why does Daniel telling Desmond in the past to go see his mother violate self-consistency? Surely when Desmond saw him in the jungle, Desmond would probably think he was going crazy or something. Then when he meets Daniel when Daniel comes from the freighter, Desmond probably just forgot meeting this guy before in the jungle (like Rousseau with Jin). When Desmond is off the island in about 2007, we then see him waking up and remembering this event. This isn’t necessarily because he’s “special”, rather that he’d just be asleep, and his dreams triggered this memory. Okay, so I’m probably talking rubbish, since they’ll likely prove me wrong in the next episodes, but anyway, make sense?