Posted by ErasedSlate on Thursday, May 7th, 2009 at 1:11 am - filed under Lost Clips, Lost News - (62) Comments
Want TV News? Visit TVOvermind.comHere are clips from Lost Season 5 Episode 15 “Follow the Leader” that dealt with the Jacob Mystery and John’s Purpose.
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62 Responses to “Lost Clips: The Jacob Puzzle”
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I don’t know about Richard’s comment to Ben about Locke being trouble. Is it possible that he’s not on the island’s side? I think Locke killing Jacob is somehow going to free him. Ben/Richard containing Jacob with volcanic ash circle? WANT TO KNOW MORE!!! Crazy theory time: Locke kills Jacob which frees him allowing him to insert himself into the pasts of the losties and therefore changing the future. Possibly the 2nd meaning of “the incident”
I’m not sold the incident is some huge explosive event. To me just the knowledge that people from the future were in my present and past would be an “incident.” Especially if I were responsible for keeping control or a history of events. “Captains Log: The paint peeled again today-all else went as…..wait a second all hell broke loose and there are time travelers amok!” That would be an incident in my book. Aside from the prospect that Jacob is a prisoner or victim-our Losties can testify first hand to that. As for Locke-he is sort of leading his own destiny at the moment. He is “aware” suddenly. And not afraid of much. Old Locke seemed a lot less adventurous with his life. Followed rules and such.
Well, the incident causes Dharma to install the button in the hatch and Chang loses his arm somehow. We’ve seen what has happened when the button wasn’t pushed anymore, so it sounds pretty explosive to me.
I love that music in the last clip. I think they first introduced it in the S3 finale, and it never gets old.
It’s been around since season 1.
Yep, first heard in Pilot, Part 2, when Kate and the others get to higher ground to (eventually) hear Rousseau’s signal.
It’s called “Hollywood and Vines” on the season one soundtrack…
Then what is the one that they introduced at the end of S3 when Naomi and them are going to the radio tower? I could swear they made some new music for that.
I agree with an eariler post-I think maybe the incident could be the fact that several dharma-folk just seemed to poof “vanish” into thin air (after it was discovered that they were not in fact who they claimed to be)…and because it happened on the same day that they evacuated all non-essentials on the island in fear of a big bad event, and during a time when there was escalating tension with the Hostiles, it was a major “to-do” for the DI…we just assume the incident had to be an “explosive” event…but maybe not so outwardly explosive as we think? Richard says that he watched jack, kate, hurley die in 1977, so who knows what actually causes it…big blast from jughead? drilling into the pocket under the swan? locke & co circa 2007 doing something in the orchid or elsewhere that makes time shift again? none of the above??? in true Lost form, it likely will be a curveball of somesort that will leave us chattering for the many many months off!
Again I strongly feel that Jacob and John are one in the same and only one can exist at a time. I also believe a person can not see one’s future self since they haven’t experienced that future yet, and for John….Jacob is his future self. Not for other people since it’s their present thats why Ben was surprised John couldn’t see Jacob in “Cabin Fever”. I expect to see a flashback to that cabin scene from jacob’s pov and how the two are talking to Ben at the same time. Why is Ben servant to Jacob? cause of his judgment from the smoke monster and his Daughter told him to follow John and he hasn’t broke that promise. So why was Ben trying to kill John earlier….maybe Ben was trying to change destiny without breaking his promise since it was “past” John and not the John he promised to follow.
Also in a diff post I mentioned how Mikhail from The Flame who worked closely with Ben made a comment to Locke and how he wasn’t the John that he knew. He was then cut-off by kate and they never revisted that conversation. So how and in what point “in time” did mikhail meet locke for him to make that comment. Keep an ear open for a young man with a thick accent possibly no eye-patch yet.
If Jacob is Locke, then isn’t it necessary for Locke to travel back in time and then become Jacob in the past? If he must, then we’re not done with timetraveling..
From the transcript:
MIKHAIL: Of course I don’t know you, Sayid Jarrah. How could I? And you, Kate Austen, are a complete stranger to me. But you John Locke, you I might have a fleeting memory of, but I must be confused, because the John Locke I know was paral—
All that’s missing is “-yzed.”
Your right with the transcript, and that makes a lot of sense now, but I got a sense that he actually knew him from the past and not just on paper.
I was kinda hoping that Mikhail would have been the Dharma torturer in “He’s our you” since he was such a sicko that seemed to be a kinda guy that would have no problem torturing someone…I was a little disappointed that the torturer was of the drug-pushing type & not really like sayid
strange (or not so) that mikhail’s temperment is quite similiar to Radzinsky’s (both living in the flame, reclusive, ill-willed, anarchist-like…maybe its something in the plumbing out in flame station?
do you guys think the glass eye the tailies found way back at the arrow (I think that was the station?) was mikhails? why was the bible with the missing footage from the swan station there? maybe it was radzinsky’s? he wears glasses, but maybe loses an eye at some point?
The reason Ben tells John about Richards concears, it that the Smoke Monster told him to follow Johns every word and if he would attempt to kill him, again, the Monster would find him and destroy him.
That said, we can assume that the Monster is controled by the Island (the will of the Island). I think that Ben is loyal to Ben because of this, and trusts John more then he does Richard.
Killing Jacob is, i believe, metaforicly. I think that John is killing Jacob as myth.
I was kinda thinking this. Maybe John thinks there is no Jacob and by going and exposing this he will “kill” Jacob.
i think locke’s definitely headed in that direction (i’m looking at the speech he made to win over the masses as ben and Ra look on).
Or the smoke-monster/island is at odds with Jacob, hence the impending “war” as Widmore alluded to.
I mean, since season 1 Locke has always been with “the island” and I think the smoke-monster and the island work together. Jacob was an afterthought in season 3, at least from Locke’s perspective. We have some idea that Locke was intrigued with this Jacob character in season 4, that maybe Locke believed Jacob and the island were synonymous, but now I’m getting the vibe that Locke knows the island and Jacob don’t get along, and the island is communicating this to Locke directly. Why it is this way is still a mystery (probably to be settled in season 6 I presume).
And just an aside, no one is really addressing the fact that Alpert witnessed the the ‘77 losties deaths. If WHH is true, then the losties are toast. Which ultimately raises the question, what the hell do they have cooked up for season 6? I mean, if all the main characters die, accepting Locke, Sun, Ben, and Alpert, what is the show going to be about? If they resurrect them all, then that’s deus ex machina to nth degree, so, for the writer’s integrities sake I don’t believe they will, or can do this. Don’t get me wrong I love all the mythology stuff, but if that’s all they’re going to address next season, and maybe only touching on the dead losties back-stories as they relate to the show mythos, then TPTB have essentially abandoned a part of their core audience who dig the character driven drama element of the show. They have basically done this already with season 5; so much story to tell-the characters be damned.
I’m ranting a bit, but overall the season, IMHO, is the worst one of the whole series. I think they got in a little over their head with all the time-travel stuff, and the character element has been sacrificed in the process. Please don’t kill the losties!
Maybe the ‘77 Losties disappear as the Incident occurs — flashing back to ‘07 — and as a result, Alpert assumes they are dead.
One problem with that though, he saw Locke and the other losties dissapear in front of his eyes, but also saw some of the same losties reappear in ‘77. So for him to believe they were dead would defy knowledge he already has regarding prior events.
I mean maybe there was a big atomic bomb-sized kaboom and the Losties disappeared in that instant. So he would think they died rather than just skipped through time.
I can’t see it being methaphorical being in the episode “Cabin Fever” John actually witnesses Jacob’s temper and for a split second we (as the audience) caught a glimpse of Jacob sitting in that rocking chair. youtube the scene or watch the episode on ABC.com, cause someone is definately there.
Whatever drives Johns decisions these days, I wonder why they are driving home the fact that “dead is dead” about him again in the “previously” section… and I wonder if Jacob lies in Brams box.
i think the monster wants jacob killed. maybe.
does jacob want jacob dead? when ben and loche went the first time to the cabin did loche hear “help me” or something like that. or maybe this is the war one part of the island, the dark part fighting with the good part. echo was on the list of people to be taken to the others or an attept at a kidnap was made anyway but the monster killed him so maybe the monster and jacobs interests aren’t always the same. not an un common theame in lost with different people comeing together at different times for common interests then falling out then working together etc
Honestly, I’m beginning to think that it might be John in the box. The real John Locke is dead and the John that is walking around on the island isn’t really John, it’s the smoke monster, which is why we never saw John or the monster in the same place this season, and why the monster told Ben to obey John, to make things easier on itself. Maybe the entire war is a civil war between the monster and Jacob. The war certainly seems more important than we’ve realized up to this point, as during the Eloise/Widmore conversation last week one of them mentioned something about “this thing is bigger than all of us”. That certainly seems like more than just Widmore trying to control the island.
Except that Locke has been able to interact with the characters and objects (like last night with the first aid kit and how he gave it to Richard) and we’ve never seen Smokey do that. I think that Locke not being around when Smokey was, was just a way to throw us off.
Smokey as Alex tossed Ben against the wall.
Have we ever seen Smokey “as someone” toss anyone around when there was more than one individual involved? We’ve seen the smoke monster itself bash people when there’s a crowd around.
This is the real Locke. It’s not Smokey. Locke is now one with the Island/Nature/Earth so he’s coming off as distant or arrogant but really he is self-aware. He has a purpose.
Oh great.. another season finale with dead Locke in a box? That’s awful..
I don´t know where to put this. but I hope Doc, and imfromthepast read it.
the plot twist this season is the fork in the outlet. witch a lot of people think is about the incident. but if you read the “wired magazine” featured in “the variable” you will find this extract:
Even after Einstein, most physicists believed the clock ticked in only one direction. While moving faster than the speed of light could, according to Einstein’s equations, reverse time’s arrow, such motion was impossible, because any object that reached that velocity would become infinite in mass. Trips to the past were preposterous.
Not anymore. Having examined Einstein’s equations more closely, physicists now realize that the river of time may be diverted into a whirlpool – called a closed timelike curve – or even a fork leading to a parallel universe. In particular, the more mass you can concentrate at a single point, the more you can bend the flow.
SOOOOOOOO??? Is this the FORK? DL and CC are talking to us??
Please Comments!
so does that mean that The Incident could be the point in which the most mass is accumulated? and therefore, as our Losties circle and circle through this closed time curve, The Incident, when it comes back around, is an important chance to affect the flow into the future?
That Wired is up in the attic, since a week I thought about digging it out.
The question remains if Damon and Carlton handle time travel like in Star Trek,
which follows the many-worlds-theory of quantum mechanics… and changes
create new timelines.
meh…that feels cheap. they’ve done such an amazing job staying paradox free AND keeping it all on the same timeline without the use of a multiverse.
I am sure you are right. Damon said at the Trek premiere in LA last week he will never touch time travel again
)
This is sounding ALOT like the dark tower to me….
and wouldn’t you know it?! damon and carlton have been charged with transporting that series to screen!
I wonder if the whole Lost series is just a set up for that!
Series Finale is Roland running through Tunisia after jacob……
The GunSlinger is Sawyer… i mean…come ooooooon.!!!!..
“time may be diverted into a whirlpool – called a closed timelike curve – or even a fork leading to a parallel universe”
This for me describes the “causal loop”… and that through the loop it self is the only way of changing things (past)..into a new direction (future)- parallel universe-.
Possible solutions for the Ontological paradox
It can be argued that by not fulfilling an event or loop which is involved in an ontological paradox, then a greater paradox is created. For example, if a scientist met a future version of himself that had travelled back in time to give him information (such as plans to an invention), by the scientist not travelling back in time in the future to give himself that information a greater paradox is created, as a conflicting timeline would be produced, and because this event always happened. Therefore in the example of the scientist, although the information he takes back with him is an ontological paradox, by not doing so a greater paradox would be formed. Therefore it may be argued an ontological paradox must be fulfilled in order to preserve the timeline. The greater paradox would entail what is called a ‘branching universe’ time-line scenario.
well that kind of makes sense…we’re kind of seeing a failed causal loop nearly every episode. it’s what makes a soap opera so damn interesting, as these characters try to achieve a certain goal they cause so many other problems and complications in their wake…usually bigger problems and complications which necessitate even more elaborate and kooky dances out of them.
what if the whole point of the show is to just try to correct generation’s past mistakes?
I just thought of this reading your post. What if the island is super-massive and that is where all the energy underneath is coming from. Time on the island does seem to be out of sync with the rest of time. Maybe Eloise’s comment about not knowing what is coming next in the last ep. is because they have finally broken out of the closed time loop thanks to Farady. She may have known that they were in a loop and Desmond living showed her that they are out of the loop now.
you think it was coincedence that Walter talked about alternate life pathways on Fringe on Tuesday? Me thinks not.
and just getting that peak of the alternative world
the island is INSIDE of a black hole.
This is where my thoughts lie right now… John is Smokey/the island incarnate He wants to kill Jacob, because Jacob is an opposing force to the island. The ash around Jacob’s cabin is there to keep Smokey out. Smokey can either only enter the cabin in human form, or he’s using the others to burn the cabin down when they see no Jacob.
If you do not believe John to be Smokey, then most must at least agree that John is acting in the interest of the island. John constantly speaks of the island as a living breathing thing. The writers have seemingly tried hard to get this point across in Locke/Jack battles. I believe even if John is not Smokey that Smokey is the island. It is said and widely believed that if we could become fully evolved, we would become pure energy. In essence humans’ pure energy form is what we refer to now as our “souls.” To me the island is indeed alive and its “soul” is most certainly Smokey…
the sheer force of smokey and its lack of any evidence that it has a weakness other than the pilon fence and (maybe) the volcanic ash make it the most powerful entity so far on the show…and it seems to act for a purpose (it told ben to obey john or else, why the alliance?). so in this particular backgammon game in which smokey is black…who or what represents white?
Still not sure on this one. I do believe in one corner we have the island and those who follow its will. In the other corner I suppose would be DHARMA and Charles. Jack’s sudden leap of faith leads me to believe that the island will have a great purpose for him. I believe he will swing towards the side that will be rooted for, although I’d like more ambiguous heroes/villains.
There’s so many twists and turns though that it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that John/Smokey is an evil entity (representing hell) and that the island and whoever is depicted by the statue is a force of good (representing heaven). I do believe they will be explaining faith and gods in a somewhat scientific manner.
I’ve always had a feeling that as Star Wars geeks Darlton would want to show that instead of arguing something like evolution vs. creation, they could co-exist and maybe even make more sense of things. I believe they want to show that science could explain faith and fill in the gaps. In other words they would want to create their own version of “the force” so that us LOST geeks could use it as reference in our ongoing discussions of the big questions.
Back to the monster. Smokey is the key to unlocking the puzzle. What he is will go a long way in explaining things. What lies in the shadow of the statue? My belief is the temple and subsequently Smokey’s underground lair. Brahm’s group could be worshipers of this dark, or possibly light entity…
I want to be clear though, I believe John is Smokey and he’s taking names (starting with Jake). Time to take it back. Thoughts on this???
Throw in the man behind the curtain (Richard) and Jacob onto the backgammon opposition. Although Jacob may be representing a side against his will (“Help me”)…
I do think the root forces of the show will end up consisting of pretty powerful and elemental existences (the references to the egyptians reeks of an iceberg tip) so I wonder if Dharma is just an extension of that original conflict…science v faith.
i totally agree with Lost having its own Force contender (something “Dharma” would work for me).
What about what Mikhail says to Locke in season 3…
That he is not the Locke he once knew… can anyone shed some light in this?
Its being troubling me after watching it again..
From where did Mikhail know Locke before that?
You’ve misquoted what was said. This was covered above already
=========
icy_one says:
May 7, 2009 at 1:51 pm
From the transcript:
MIKHAIL: Of course I don’t know you, Sayid Jarrah. How could I? And you, Kate Austen, are a complete stranger to me. But you John Locke, you I might have a fleeting memory of, but I must be confused, because the John Locke I know was paral—
All that’s missing is “-yzed.”
thanx!!
the fun thing, though, is that it still totally applies! locke’s definitely wiggling his spiritual toe.
I don’t believe that the outcome of lost will be a battle between dark vs light in which light will win. I think dark vs. light is more of a balance… whatever that means.
I seriously don’t believe the whole Smokey = Lock/Jacob/the island ….
I believe that people shouldn’t be asking those questions. I think that people need to pay more attention to the clues that are given during the episode and things certain characters say, such as:
1. Ilana, wrong for the fam. of that guy Sayid shot. To me it raises the question wheter or not she was telling the truth, and if so who was the man (and his fam.) he shot, or was this just planned in order to bring him to the island.
2. Ben stating to that women from that butchershop (an Other) that if they fail, everything that’s about to happen is all for nothing.
3. Why Christian in the first place appeared instead of Jacob. Christian is apparently still roaming the Island since he talked to Sun and Frank (they can see, hear and speak to him. Strangely, Christian was revived too, and still nobody seems to have notist his excistains. When visiting Jacob in order to move the island, Lock doesn’t tell Ben that he spoke to Christian). Does Richard and the Others know about Christian? If not why did he only appeared to John?
I’m starting to think that John is leading the Others into a new age. The beginning of this age may start with the death of the old age (Jacob).
BTW, wasn’t Christian revived too? Why and can this be said the same about Jacob, was he revived to?
How did Bram and Ilana know to take Ajira 316? Why did they ask Lapidus “What lies beneath the shadow of the statue? or Miles for that matter. Whats in the box they unloaded from the crash? Does the box contain a bomb cause the hydrogen bomb idea didn’t go so smooth. When Ethan shot Locke, was the plane still in the tree? Cause that would mean 316 crashed before 815 still giving time to blow up desmond or inman/radzinsky preventing 815 to crash which ends the loop.
Questions that may not be answered:
Who the heck buried Henry Gale?
Why did Rousso’s team go insane from going under the temple?
Is Dave imaginary or is he a past dead guy that Hurley actually knows?
Why was Hurley originally put in a mental hospital, has he always been able to see dead people?
Was it pandora’s box Lenny was referring to or a different one when Hurley used the numbers?
Will John ever know he once worked for Hurley’s box factory?
Why did the Others grab walt, claim he’s special, then just let him go?
Did claire die?
Is Hurley keeping track of more than “Empire Strikes Back” in his composition book and using the guitar case to preserve it?
and many more to wonder….
I recently re-watched season 1 epi that was walt-centric, and he is a spooky kid! in his flash backs you see him just staring into space at certain points…was he astrally projecting (transporting his consciousness into places/times he wasn’t supposed to be? like the Other who questioned michael about walt’s abilities in season 2?) why does he kill birds and seem to have the ability to make things that he sees happen sometimes (e.g., the polar bear comic book he was reading right before the bear attacked him; he was reading a book about rare birds and it happened to crash into his window)…I hope this gets some answers sometime before the end.
he did look more well-adjusted when locke visited him in NYC this year though, so maybe things are turning around for him.
Since they’ve spent this season largely in the past, what do you think about season six taking place in the future…pretty far into the future? What if the egyptian hieroglyphics were meant to throw us off? what if jack does detonate jughead and an incident occurs but instead of them all being restored to Sept. 2004 (which I don’t recall anyone ever explaining why that would occur…are we supposed to take a leap of faith on that one? a massive nuke explosion somehow reverses time-space continuum and restores them to this time? anything is possible, I guess?), they end up surpassing this time and plunge into many years forward?
You gotta think that there is a major curveball coming our way (as typical finale fashion), and it would open the door for new stories for season 6?
Hello ppl..
I got a new “Theory” about Jacob after recapping some episodes..
We know that Jacob has been waiting for Locke for a “real long time”..
Now who is really waiting for Locke.. we already know that. James is..
.. and the rest of 1977 gang.
Ever since Locke went down that water-well (FDW) to help everybody in the island by bringing back the ones left.
..James is the one that really holds up to waiting for Locke.. for how long?
“As long as it takes”…his precise words..
So maybe in the Incident, James is somehow altered (timely?) and becomes Jacob..
And how could he be altered?
My theory is that James was the only one left back in 1977.
(Either the rest of 1977 gang changed time…or died..) making James/Jacob wait 30 more years till the 108-316 crashes the island and John returns.
Making him the man that has been waiting for John Locke “a really long time”.
In La Fleur James has a chat with GuyLiner RA and tells him all about
(20 years in the past)Jugghead,Locke,and that he is waiting for that man.
Anyway… i bet my corei7 that i’m wrong.. ;p
but all the above seemed to add up in my mind around Jacob.
Live and Prosper…
Small correction in my above post.. i meant flight 815 from oceanic.
Not 108.. wrong number.. (boom!)
(Either the rest of 1977 gang changed time…or died..) making James/Jacob wait 30 more years till the 815-316 crash the island and John returns.
Making him the man that has been waiting for John Locke “a really long time”.
Richard knows who Jacob is back in the 50s when Locke visits his camp, so that’s out.
I think its entirely possible Locke doesn’t believe in Jacob (independent of whether he exists or not). I can see him calling out Ben in front of all the Others to admit he doesn’t exist- ie, to ‘murder’ him. If Jacob DOES exist in some form (and i expect he does given we’ve seen him), that would be a great time for a dramatic correction of Locke’s assumption.