I think we are finally going to get some definitive answers to how the island actually works with Daniel Faraday on the Island (unless he gets killed, then all bets are off).This week Dr. Faraday did a simple time dilation test, time as it is perceived by two different observers (the rocket and himself). His results were astounding, the time dilation between the island and thw outside world was 31 minutes. Now just looking at the number 31 is interesting in and of itself, but the big deal is the ratio yielded in the experiment which is about 5/6.
How big is the dilation?
If the time dilation is a constant and depending on where it started the island can be in a completely different time. If it started when they crashed on the island ("The Economist" is on the 94th day, that is Christmas Eve), then real world time has elapsed 111 days. If it only started after the hatch implosion then (27 days have gone by since then), real world time has elapsed 99 days since the crash. Although, with the dilation being constant, we would notice a difference in the radio contact between the island and "Not Penny's Boat."
What does it all mean, Basil?
There are multiple ways of explaining the phenomena that is occurring that would cause this kind of dilation on the island. For starters, we bring back an old friend, Closed Timelike Curves.
Theory #1:
Last week, we examined the idea of a CTC enveloping the island due to the strong electromagnetic field. The island's CTC could be running parallel with the rest of the world, but it is off by just a little bit. This would cause the time dilation that Faraday observed, and would also mean that the dilation is constant and has been going on for some time.
Now if the CTC has been around since Ben came to the island (about 30 years), then Ben is about 5 1/2 years behind the rest of the world. The dilation would also allow Ben to get the footage of Juliet's sister (giving the false idea that time moves at the same speed on island and off) with ease, since Juliet was on the island for three years.
Theory #2:
Behind door number 2 is the island has an Event Horizon. An Event Horizon is a boundary in space-time (we are hinting towards Minkowski again). The rocket would have been slowed when it entered the event horizon. This theory would, like the CTC, peg the dilation as being constant, but has a way around the problem with the radios. The frequency change is explained by a Cauchy Horizon (pronounced Ko-shi), but if it contains the Casimir Effect (Orchid Station) this change will not happen.
Theory #3:
The island has a fluctuating electromagnetic field. And by fluctuating, I mean fluctuating in multiple ways (strength, direction, and velocity). But how exactly does time change with the electromagnetic field?
Let's take a look at Einstein's Special Relativity, his whole theory is hinged on the fact that light is the fastest anything can go. Time dilation, as explained by special relativity, two clocks moving in motion of each other will see the others clock as being dilated. The effect is reciprocal. This is shown by the Lorentz factor blow:
Where the speed of light is depicted by c and the relative velocity is v. Now James Clerk Maxwell said that electromagnetism also moves at the speed of light (since it is made of photons, like light). So theoretically we could replace the speed of light with the speed of electromagnetism, and with some basic algebra we will get the following:
So with Daniel Faraday being one observer and the rocket being the other, the electromagnetic field of the island would be traveling at half the speed of light. Crazy, huh? But thats not all, the field (since velocity is determined by multiple factors) will be fluctuating as found by Maxwell's equations:
The Dharma Initiative found this field on the island, and tried to tap into it. When they had failed, they decided to cork the field by installing the hatch. This allowed them to release the field in small doses and study its time dilating effects. Then the hatch imploded, and the field was partly sealed which would keep the field from going completely out of control. But the field is still leaking out, which would account for the strong electromagnetic field that is surrounding the island and its fluctuating attribute.Daniel may have found an area where the field is not present, and was telling Frank to fly there so that his helicopter would not be not affected by the field.
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I remember someone a year or so ago bringing up the issue of the South Asian Tsunami, which occurred on Dec 26, 2004. I have since been hoping that it would play into the story somehow. However, I initially had my hopes dashed last night when Jack and Frank were talking about 100 days since the crash. They talk about the Red Sox world series victory, why not draw in other real-world events, especially one that physically affects that region. IF there were no time discrepancies, this would have been well after the tsunami hit. However, your calculation of the differences in time, leaves a small amount of room for the tsunami to still be in the story. Of course, if the past and future are changing with Desmond's heroics, then maybe the tsunami has been written out as happening in another parallel time/space.
Im surprised no one has brought this up yet but the idea of their being one direction to get off the island makes perfect sense. With any kind of magnet/electromagnetic field, there are going to be a minimum of two places where the minimum of two sides of the field are going to cancel each other out for a net of 0.
Check out this picture:
http://users.rcn.com/zap.dnai/ftp/pictures/bub1a1.gif
Look at the field lines coming off at the right and left side, they are straight lines, with next to no change in their net direction. However in other directions the field lines becoem curved. If the island has created an electromagnetic field than we could hypothesize that as the lines become more and more curved the time is dilated more and more. Or that may be just excess theorizing. Anyway there are two directions to get off the island with no residual issues.
There is another interesting point to be made here. Throughout the show we have noticed a lot of duality in the themes. There is black/white, good/evil, science/faith, (IMO) light monster/dark monster, and now if we look at that picture closely positive/negative sides of an electromagnetic field.
Speaking of dilated...did anyone notice Elsa's pupils being dilated?
Sorry Jalocke, it doesn't work that way, an electromagnetic field does not cancel itself out. The picture you linked was of two charges (positive and negative), and the way their electric fields interact with each other. I appreciate the theory though :)
Did you get the 5/6 ratio by assuming they were timers and not clocks? Timers make as much sense as clocks except for a few things.
First, no rocket that small is going to last for over three hours. Even if you take time dilation into account, the rocket experienced over three hours of time. (Sorry I'm an Aerospace Engineer, so I know I'm being picky. It also bugs me that that it's traveling just shy of 5000 m.p.h. based on Regina's ranges, so I know I'm being a little over the top)
Second, the first thing Daniel does when he pulls the "object" out of the rocket is to compare it to his watch. I know that's not definitive, but strongly hints to me that it's a clock. Plus, there just didn't seem that much elapsed time between the scenes, but that's always hard to judge
Other than that I love your theory, just suggesting that the ratio you use might be off. If it's a clock and not a timer, we'd have to know what time Dan arrived on the island to get a good ratio.
does anybody think that who ever sent that rocket was playing a trick on Faraday. I mean she could have changed the time on the rockets clock for all we know. Why would she do that? Maybe she wants Faraday to think that the island is special (and the writers want us to think so as well) so Faraday continues to doe his research for some other purpose. I dont know...I just dont think the show production has a real physicist to actually direct them and make sure the physics is correct, b/c base on the theories posted here, this is some advance stuff and if this advanced physics is the real answer, it may turn off a lot of viewers who arent mathematically savy b/c they wont get it. I know, it would be best if they can explain this with real physics and not play it off as a prank played by whoever is on the freighter.
What about the dates of things we know--does the number of days between the crash and Jack being *shown* the Sox winning the series match up with the number of days between the flight and the game in the outside world? (Acknowledging, of course, that it could have been a tape, but still, it's some kind of real-world chronological benchmark.)
You mention Event Horizon, which immediately makes me think of black holes. I believe there's a theory that when an object gets sucked into a black hole, from the observer’s perspective that object is spaghettified and annihilated, but from the object’s perspective things continue on as “normal”. Perhaps the island is a black hole?
My guess is that the island exists in a parallel universe and that there is a wormhole possessing a finite distance that connects the two realities. As far as what the physical laws are in the parallel universe go, well, they may not be exactly the same as in the "real" world where the freighter is. For that matter maybe the freighter exists in yet in another parallel universe that is not the same as that from where the 815 flight originated.
To Tim J about the red sox game:
The Red Sox won their game on the 27 October, that's 35 days after the plane crash. But i'm pretty sure Ben showed Jack a tape ...
Hey, I just read over the stuff on the electromagnetic field velocity, and without really digging too far into the mathematics, it doesn't really make any sense.
I mean, part of the point of that article is that there is no clear and obvious physical definition of the "velocity" of the field. It has clearly defined momentum and energy density, but not velocity.
What is meant by electromagnetism having a speed c is that if I move an electron, the force that exerts on a proton, say that you're holding won't change to reflect the movement of the electron until a time later, determined by the velocity c. This is fixed and unchangable, and is a law of the universe, and has nothing to do with the fields involved.
The whole reason that time dilation occurs is because this velocity is invarient to all observers. No matter how fast you're moving, you will always see the electromagnetic force (or light, equivalently, because light is a wave in the field) propagating at c, so time and space change to allow it.
In fact, magnetism is a by-product of special relativity. It's fairly easy to show that if you apply length contraction and time dilation, what we think of as the electric force becomes the magnetic force. Magnetism is just another way of seeing electricity.
That formula doesn't tell you that the field is fluctuating. It tells you that the velocity they've defined varies depending on the rate of change of magnitude with respect to the other, it tells you nothing of the nature of that change in absolute terms, even if you are given a velocity!
This is the first time that I have been on here, so I hope I am not bringing up previously discussed ideas. I had two thoughts.
1. Perhaps the island is in a magnetic field that is spinning in reverse to the rest of the earth. Is it possible that there is a sort of Faraday cage around the area of the island created by this reverse motion.
2. I noticed that 3:16 is the number that is always on the doomsday signs of street preachers (You are supposed to read John chapter 3 verse 16 and get saved). It says that God loved the world, and sent his son to save us all.... There is no John 2:45, but Daniel 2:45 is a parable about God's people being like a type of rock that will not stick to the rest of the earth, but rather remains separate. Since it is Daniel who is doing the experiment. Could be coincidence. I'm not a biblical person in general, but with the introduction of CS Lewis, who knows?
Tell please, what means "СТС"? While translating this clause on Russian it is very not clear. Somebody, please decipher.)))
Could this mean that the Dharma air drops really originated from a time the Initiative was still in full swing?
Could be, Danny... but time moves slower on the island, right? So, in effect, the outer world would be dropping food maybe hypothetically once every three months, but on the island they'd get it every three weeks or something.
Another thing that I've thought about re-watching some episodes is that when Hurley is put in charge of the Hatch stash of food, he says to Jack that there's enough food for one man for about four months. So, that food stash that was dropped was definitely meant for the button-pushers who'd be running out of food in two to four months, depending on how many people were supposed to be down there. (one or two.)
So.... why would Dharma still be dropping food if the outer world is in the "future" and the island is behind that time? Or, is there some sort of alternate dimension thing going on? How do we reconcile the time difference on Faraday's clocks with the food dropping?!!!!! THOUGHTS? I know this thread is getting dry... but if anyone has any ideas, let us know!!!
I love this theory. I also agree with tkengland that they are clocks not timers and the only other thing i thought about was that Christmas eve was actually not in "The Economist" it was in "Constant". Des calls Penny on Christmas eve. At least that's what Sayid says. Other than those two things this is really sound theory.