Finale Fever - What is your Time Travel theory?

I don't know if you consider Michael to be a "freightie" now or not, but the finding of the fake 815 wreckage was certainly prominent in his FF, complete with documentation from Tom linking it to Widmore.

there's been so many theories over the last 2 seasons it makes my head spin! but one that always bugged me was way back at season 3, when we saw what happened to desmond when the hatch blew, and what was happening to him, ie:his flashes, i always wondered what had happened to locke and echo as they were there too. and i recall locke seemingly knowing it was going to rain, like he'd had a flash of his own, and had also jumped when the hatch blew up and opened the door..........i dont know, but weve seen nothing of mrs hawking or her friend the monk for a while.....
i dont know if it meant anything at all or maybe the writers of that episode were just making locke act wierd!!! and if this has all been covered before please forgive my ignorance :)

richie: Locke was able to predict when it was going to rain back at the start of season 1. It was a part of the whole "mysterious outdoorsman" thing he had going on there, when fans were talking about if he was an Other spy or something. It might have been explained in-series but I cant remember, and always put it down to him being able to sense changes in air pressure which preceded the downpour.

I was working on this for a blog posting, but since W.AxelFoley asked for some theories, I will submit this to his thread.


We already know that the Island time moves, or is perceived to move, at a different rate than the rest of the world. Timelines themselves off and on the Island are changed when certain "magnetic" incidents happen on the Island. Examples of this are as follows.


Miles walks upstairs toward the bedroom, and we see the family pictures in dark wood frames. While Miles is in the bedroom, "speaking to the spirit", we see a lens flare in the camera. When Miles returns down the stairs, we see that the picture frames are now all shiny metal frames. When Desmond failed to push the button (sometime in the future), and brought the 815 down, this changed Miles timeline, since this incident eventually would result in Miles trip to the Island.


The Others were wearing their "rustic" clothes right up to the time Desmond turned the failsafe key. The next time we see the Others, they are dressed in more modern apparel. Once again, Desmond's failsafe incident changed the timeline, and they reverted to a different timeline.


In a flash forward, we see Jack off island living with Kate. He has no body hair. Yet previously on island, during the appendix operation by Juliet, the writers even point out that Jack is "hairy" by having Juliet shave him in the area that she is going to operate on. Once again, a future timeline was changed, this time by the upcoming Orchid incident, the "moving of the Island." I would even suggest that the writers placed the appendix operation plot into the show (which a lot of LOST viewers thought was wasted frame time) to showcase the fact that jack had heavy body hair.


Right before the Orchid incident, when Kate and Sayid are surrounded by the Others, we see the Others dressed once more in their "rustic" wardrobe. The Orchid incident in the future shifted the past timeline again.


When we (and Ben) first see Richard, he is dressed in his "rustic" clothing. We know something happened on the Island in 1985. And then again, it seems probable that we had another incident in 1992 (right after the Purge) in order to "move" (and hide) the Island. I would suggest that between 1985 and 1992, Richards clothes would have been more "modern" and then reverted back to "rustic" afterward, looking like he did when the survivors first meet the Others.


In the flash forward picture of the Oceanic Six, we see them wearing clothing that looked like the same clothes that they had been wearing when they crashed.


Richard Malkin, the psychic, at first wanted nothing to do with Claire. And then suddenly, he changed his mind, and cautioned Claire about who should raise the baby. Did Desmond's failsafe episode in the near future change Richards timeline.


Every time we have a (chose one) magnetic, quantum, failsafe, "move island" event on the Island, timelines are shifted. Arriving or leaving the Island puts a person into a different timeline. In the "outside world," there are really only six survivors of the 815 crash. All the others are only "alive" in their own individual timelines. These are only a few of the "sudden changes" that have happened that I have been able to dig up. I suspect there are more.


WLN

WLN:
One more is the gray in Jack's beard. In TTLG, it's very noticable on island, but in the FF's, no gray at all.

WLN, I'm not sure about your theory on Jack's body hair. Maybe he just starts waxing when he gets back to the mainland? Otherwise, the rest are very interesting.

AliKzam said:"WLN, I'm not sure about your theory on Jack's body hair. Maybe he just starts waxing when he gets back to the mainland? Otherwise, the rest are very interesting."


Ali,


Possible. And I have seen other comments that the appendix scar was missing in the flash forward. What ever, missing hair, missing scar, writers and directors of film rarely take up ANY frame time with footage that doesn't advance the story (except David Lynch LOL). There is something that the writers wanted us to know from the way that flash forward scene was set up, with Jack laying there, upper body exposed the way it was. IMHO.


Thanks for your compliment.


WLN

OK, I have never seen anyone make this connection before, so I will try to get to the point here. The Lost story, as it progresses, becomes more like "Legacy of Kain" with each step. The basic story as follows:
Set in an alternate earth history around maybe 10 to 20 thousand years ago, there was a noble race of winged beings called Vampires. They ruled the lands peacefully and worshipped a God that took the souls of the dead and spun them in the wheel of life for reincarnation. At some point, alien beings known as "Hylden" came to the earth and try to live among the Vampires and Humans. But they don't see eye to eye on religion, and that always becomes a reason for war. So they fight,and in the end, the vampires cast them into a demonic realm as an eternal prison. But not before the Hylden cast a spell that would turn the Vampires into what we believe them to be today. They would never die from natural causes and suicide was not condoned by thier God. So they would live for millenia and most would go insane which also tainted thier souls. This distanced them from thier God and angered Him because he was also being sustained by the souls of the dead. With the souls cutoff from Him, He came up with a plan. Although He was very powerful and all knowing, events had to take place from freewill of Vampires and Humans. It would take thousands of years for changes to take place, but time meant nothing to this God. He could see all time and existed at all time. He knew everything that would ever take place, and strategized for it. But one Vampire came along by the name of Kain who was manipulated into becoming something he was not destined for by a time streamer named Moebius. Kain figures this out and kills Moebius to acquire his time streaming device. He then spends the next thousand years or so time traveling to understand why his destiny was changed and who wanted it altered. He finally came to realize that no matter what he planned to do to change things back, this God could always see his plans and was one step ahead of him. Kain came to understand an acient prophecy of one creature that comes into being that is beyond influence of this God. God would not be able to control or predict what actions this creature would make. Kain then understood that it was he himself who would eventually spark the creation of the this being. It was the only hope he had to break this cycle of destiny that was created for him. Kain realized in his time travels that he was not able change events of the past. When he tried to physically kill someone or take something that did not take place in the past, he was compelled by a force to comply. But the prophesized creature could use freewill and the time device to change past events and there would be a course correction in time to allow his changes. The creature "Raziel" would eventually understand that many forces knew of him and wanted to manipulate him into changing things to thier benefit. There were two sides: the Hylden (who could possess Raziel from time to time from thier exile)and the Vampires (represented by Kain). And there was God, a third party with His own interests in mind. Keep in mind that God was not what they thought He was. And that soon comes to light just as it does in OZ. I am sure you get the idea by now. So here are the major similarities I have noted to Lost.

A God figure with the abilty to travel time and create life from the dead.
2 sides: White and Black being watched and manipulated for an endgame.
Time loops that cannot be changed by just anyone. (obviously, Widmore changed something but Desmond could not).
A prophecy of a man that could change it all. I believe Locke is Kain, and Jack is Raziel. Locke will know he is being manipulted by the end, but he has to convince Jack so the changes can be made.

This is the sloppy version, and I apologize for that. Please look into the story on Wikipedia. It's full of details, and is a fantastic read.

gusteaux said:" WLN: One more is the gray in Jack's beard. In TTLG, it's very noticable on island, but in the FF's, no gray at all."


Good catch. I have been researching on Lostpedia for these sort of subtle "changes" that I suspect have been "peppered" into the show from the very beginning, and only now, that we have been given some hint about the nature of time on/off the Island, these bit and pieces are starting to become more obvious.


WLN

I posted this in another one but I'll post it again in the time travel post:

What if when Locke moves the island, it goes back to when Dharma was in control and the rest of the Losties join them. I know people have said this, but something I thought of just now is how Ben said he wasn't always in control. What if Locke is the leader of the "hostiles" and also orders the Purge. That'd be a mind f**k.

Nice WLN, sorry to trump you. Yes.. Michael's flashforward did mention the wreckage, but I don't think any of the O6 did. Interesting. Makes me wonder if this happened in another timeline.

W. Axel Foley said: "Nice WLN, sorry to trump you..."


No apology needed. I'd rather see the users and contributors having a good thread going rather than my name on an article.


WLN

I just came up with another possible timeline "sudden change." Before the crash of 815, Claire's mother was in a coma in the hospital, due to a devastating car wreck. In the flash forward at the memorial service for Jack's father, she seems remarkably well recovered. And this would have been only a few months AFTER we had seen her in the hospital.


WLN

Now that the producers have confirmed some time shenanigans, and set up the rule that there can be no paradoxes, there is a door open to multiple possibilities.

Like WLN mentioned before, there is a difference in time that occurs when traveling to the island. Depending on the bearing, you could go backwards or forwards in time. This anomaly only confirms that there is an element in the story that involves time manipulation. We thought the pay-off for this would have been Michael's story.

Similar to others, I believe that there is a looping of one time line. There is only one reality, one universe, but a big ole course correction going on. The island loops back to its beginning and replays the events. What we witness is the last event that moves the island and time forward in its course correction. What Desmond sees or rather remembers is what happened in the previous iteration that cause the whole thing to loop again.

From the first episode, the sounds (i.e. smoke monster) and events (i.e. Locke�s rain predicting) let us in on the character�s sense of d�j� vu. What I am proposing is something along the lines of the movie Next when Nicolas Cage�s character could manipulate the last two minutes to affect a positive outcome. In this particular case, we are witnessing the manipulation of events over the course of hundreds of years. We see the positive steps that lead us to the ultimate conclusion of Lost. The reason certain props are different is because the character did something different in the time between that changed the outcome and moved time forward to ultimate end.

gusteaux Michael hasn't has a flash forward yet,
that was a flashback

I believe the island has always wanted john locke to make the island go back in time that is why he was guided to the original hatch the swan station. The island wanted locke to not push the button. Everything was going to plan with the sky turning purple when locke destroyed the button. but then desmond turn it off and the island stayed put. Now i believe the hatch and desmond went back into time however desmond was pulled out of the past and that is why he was naked in the jungle because his clothes and everything else in that hatch was sent back into time... I believe that the oceanic 6 will be in there raft and then see the island disappear witht the sky turning purple... Locke will take the island back into time with them arriving to jacob's time period...

I can't help but theorize that Locke will end up pushing a button again in the Orchid in order to correct what Desmond did and re-hide the Island. Ben does always have a plan... I've also been thinking that the only time you can travel using the Orchid is when you move the Island, in that the Island's unique properties balance with its movement and allow time travel, but at great risk and potential cost. I agree that the O6 think they can never find the Island again becuase they will see it move, but just maybe bearded Jack's FF is to the time where the Island ends up.. possibly leading to the theorized O6 leaving and then coming right back to the Island.

I also wonder if anyone thinks we are totally off the mark and that the time travel is in mind only...

No, I definitely think the producers/writers have weaved into the show a form of time “something.” It doesn’t seem to be the “Back to the Future” style, paradox creating time travel, but it does have elements of shifting both past, present and future events. I say shifting, because I still think the concept of the universe “course correcting” still plays into this.


What is clever in this sort of plot arc, is the “tug o’ war” that has been set up here. It seems we have a number of players trying to “change” what ever happened or is about to happen. And then we have “the Island,” an entity who seems to be determined to advance only a single outcome.


At any given time, it is hard to surmise who is working for the Island and who is working against the Island. Do the original others (pre-Dharma) have the same mission as the newer Others (Ben, Juliet etc.) that are mixed in with the group. Is Widmore and the other corporate players friend or foe, or does their allegiance change depending on shifts in the events.


No, I don’t think we have come a full four seasons, with so many clues and hints that seem to target a “time something,” just to find out that we are barking up the wrong tree.


I do think that there will be enough revels in the season four finale that will cause us to reexamine everything we have watched so far.


WLN

@ dave b and richie

Locke's ability to sense when it's going to rain isn't as uncommon as some would think. Admittedly with people it's not usually as "to the minute" as it is with Locke, but with animals it often is. My hens often go under cover a few moments before it rains, as birds are very sensitive to changes in air pressure. Sorry if this is off topic but I thought you raised an interesting point, as Locke seems to have a real Zen connection with his environment when he's not distracted.

Quailman

LOL
Only LOST fans would consider wardrobe changes, hairstyle choices, and production errors to be evidence of timeline shifts! Give me a break.

imfromthepast said: "LOL. Only LOST fans would consider wardrobe changes, hairstyle choices, and production errors to be evidence of timeline shifts! Give me a break."


I don't know if you have had the pleasure of working on a major TV show or feature film, but your statement above does not hold up to what transpires in the industry.


Yes, production errors happen, you may see an occasional wardrobe mistake and once in a while a hair stylist will accidently part and actors hair on a different side. But in general, there are many stop gap processes in place to prevent this.


Continuity editing, PA's taking match photos, script consultants and so on are all tasked with catching these sort of mistakes.


The "clues" that we have been discussing would not fall under your category of production errors. In the Miles Straume scene there are two picture frames that change from wooden frames to metal frames. For this to happen accidently, the set decorator would have had to break down the set up and re-hang the pictures. Even if the filming of this scene took place over multiple days, match photos would have been taken to make sure no changes happened on the set. You don't dress 10 to 12 featured extras in modern clothing one day and then in rustic clothing the next, just at the whim of someone in wardrobe. And you don't spend 15 minutes of an episode to build in a appendix operation scene just to forget the "scar" in a scene that shows the actor only a few months later, naked from his waist up, shot from his right side.


Yes, production errors do occur, but the producers of this show have been very honest with answering viewers question in regards to possible errors. A good example is the obituary that we saw Jack reading in his car. The producers admitted that the prop department took some liberties with the text of the article and the information in that prop cannot be considered accurate.


WLN

I don't really have a theory, but I suppose an attachment.

I agree with the prop errors. I think that there are numerous evidences that time is a HUGE factor on Lost.

I think that Ben and Locke will take the Island back in time. Ben will ultimately leave the Island to pursue Penny, leaving the Island in Locke's hands.

We know that in season 5 we will learn more about DHARMA, podcast info. So, why couldn't the Island jump back to when DHARMA takes the Island? Hey, then we'd get to see Roussau again!

NLL

Correction: There are no prop errors! The changes on the picture frames, Jack's hair etc, are all intentional! I think it's to show that there are different time lines, or a parallel universe happening.

NLL

Could the Flash Forwards actually be remembered by the O6, as the Flashbackss are by everyone who has had them. Supporting the theory that the Island, and there lives repeats on itslef.

Therefore the characters who remember what is going to happen in the future, will act on the island how they didnt the previous time, trying to change or alter the future, as Desmond did.

No matter what he tried to do to save Charlie, he knew he was going to die, its like he lived each attempt to save Charlie before:-

Firstly watching originally die.
Then each other time trying to save him in the other ways.
Each time he sees how Charlie dies, in the next timeline he saves Charlie from that certain death.
So, for example, in the next time line he doesnt let Charlie go out to the station to die.
Or he tried to save him previously alot more, or other times but failed, and this way, for Charlie to die by drowning, is the best way for his timeline, maybe its the only one that gets him back with Penny.

This may be a bit farfetched, but lemme know your views on my theory.

OYSTA LOVES CHARLIE

I personally dont think that the island is traveling back in time.

The island had to already exist, so if it traveled back in time you would then have 2 islands occupying the same space. They already said this couldn't happen.

If the island traveled back in time to be the island that Dharma originally occupies, then the island would NEVER exist in the FF timeline, because it would be stuck in a loop and only exist between the 1970's and 2004.

The Others may have been wearing different clothes, but they have already proven to be masters of disguise. Goodwin was wearing more modern clothes when he first found his way in with the Tailies, and Richard has shown that he can wear more than just the color brown ( and in many different time periods. Sure its just a suit, but I'm sure you see my point).

As for body hair and whatnot, the island has already proven itself to be a mystery in the way of healing the body, and reducing age as well (which could explain Richard's long life).

The "test" that Richard gave little boy Locke is similar to test to discover the reincarnated Lamas.
Basically if Locke would have been ready to accept his destiny as, for example, the Others reincarnated leader, he would have chosen correctly from the beginning. Even at that young age, he had either some memory of a probable past life (viewable in the form of a drawing of the smoke monster), or future events (smoke monster killing Eko, or mercenaries)

I understand that time travel is awesome, and I do admit that it will play a big part in the rest of the show, but you cant forget that a supposed rip in space-time is just a drop in the bucket compared to all the other forces present on the island.

I hope you enjoyed, I have many different theories of everything from the the origin of the Others, to the true nature of the island and its place in history. I'll be willing to discuss anything