04.12 Questions, answers, new questions and theories.

Sun made the comment that two people were responsible for her husband's death and one was her father. Who was the other? Did she take over her father's company to go after Widmore's finanacial resources?

I never saw the ep where hte sky turned 'violet' but I saw a screencap and it doesn't seem as vivid as violet to me, truly it looks like the paler shade called 'orchid' but maybe that's just a coincidence

I reffuse to believe it, but everything tells us that Des is going to die on the freighter too.

Oh man! I like ben now. I can't really figure out his character though...I dont think Michael, Des or Jin dies. I think when they relocate the Island, the freighter somehow lands right next to it, and so they stay back on the Island or something.

Did I watch the same show as this dude?

Hurley is in the mental hospital because he was seeing Charlie.

We don't know that the "secondary protocol" is a DHARMA plan. There's nothing to validate that it is. The suitcase could have been placed by Ben or one of his pals in case of the need of a 'last resort' (as stated in the show).

The Orchid doesn't look like it was damaged by the Purge or incident or whatever. The first level is a greenhouse. The building is decrepit from neglect. It is overgrown.

ErasedSlate - - I have the answer to your first question. I understand it's from a good source. The thing is that Doc will likely ban me if I post spoilers here. Ah, decisions, decisions...

DM: Hurley's back in the mental hospital because of the numbers, then cause of Charlie. Combo of both.

The secondary plan IS a Dharma plan. When Keamy pulled it out last week, it had a big fat Dharma logo on it. Check the screen caps.

We do know that the 'secondary protocol' is a Dharma plan because the book Keamy found it in while in the captain's cabin had a Dharma symbol (Orchid Station) on the cover.

You don't know what is inside the Orchid file provided by Widmore. For all we know, this is the second time Widmore is about to find himself shut out from the Island. When Keamy pulls the Orchid file, we have to assume we are learning where he should go based on Widmore's previous experience with the Island and what to expect at the station. The file could be exclusively about the Orchid (location/facilities/purpose/history). There has been absolutely no firm evidence Widmore's plan was initiated by an original Dharma concept. The Dharma logo doesn't mean the "secondary protocol" is a Dharma plan.

Hurley: Again, you guys have created a lazy cause and effect relationship by saying "Hurley was institutionalized because the reappearance of the numbers." Hurley was broken by Charlie's appearance. This event definitively puts the man in the institution. The re-emergence of the numbers during a tactless birthday party can be traced as a catalyst for Hurley's inability to assimilate off-Island.

The O6+2 story-- some of you are still holding on to that? There are no identities for the +2. Their existence is a fabrication made for the media. Producers have already said it's a dead end.

Add to this list the suggestion that Charlotte and Faraday may have a personal history. And more evidence of my emerging theory that Ben and Widmore's camps are in league together, at least in some begrudging simbiotic capacity. Did it not strike everyone as a major plot hole that Ben can just strole into Widmore's plush hotel room a little too easily? How bout the fact that Widmore could simply follow Ben or have him followed from the hotel room if finding the island were his only objective. Ben was shocked that his daughter was killed, as if it was understood that the series of events leading up to it was inevitable or even planned. Ben's communicae via mirror message from the lowland? His answer to Locke's inquiry was rather cryptic and Keamy's men were perfectly positioned mere moments after that message was received. Something is rotten in the state of Membata.

DM said: "You don't know what is inside the Orchid file provided by Widmore."


There is no active Dharma project, since at least 1992 (time of the Purge), if not earlier. There is evidence from The Lost Experience that Thomas Mittelwork has continued Dharma inspired research off-island since that time, but not a single document uncovered by Rachael (in The Lost Experience) displays any Dharma logos or any mention of Dharma. This would certainly imply (if not possibly prove) that any document that Widmore with Dharma graphics on it would be a document that was formulated by the project, not by Widmore, prior to current time.


Hurley's reaction to seeing the numbers was certainly the first step in a mental decline that lead to his return to the hospital. It's evident from other flashforwards that this wasn't the only incident that played a part in his mental state, just the first.


Even if the "2 other survivors" aspect of the O6's story is part of the fabrication, there should be 2 names connected to that story. All I am saying is that we now know that these two people are not Jin and Claire. Whether the writers are or aren't going to ever reveal that part of the rescue story, it did result in a LOT of speculation by Lost fans, and this episode DOES answer some of those speculations.

I'd actually like to correct a few things and add a little.

First is that we know already that seeing Charlie causes Hurley
to plead insane to big Mike, and that's how he ends up back in
Santa Rosa, not over the numbers.

Aaron is a him not a her :P

The entrance couldn't have been damaged in the incident, as the
incident was a electromagnetic leak at the site where the Swan
used to be.

Even though it is probable, there is no evidence that Keamy rigged
the C4 on the frieghter.

The Orchid protocol probably was a Dharma plan from 15yrs ago,
however it is already been suggested several times with strong
evidence that Widmore has very tight ties with Dharma. Hence how
he knew the protocol.

And what I'd like to add is that we now know that at least Dan was
aware of the island before coming to it, and what went on there before.
He must know about the Purge also.

And finally I'd like to saw, Ben and Widmore are not working together
for the final time. That theory would make most of this season a lie
that was stupidly placed to throw us off. That is not what Lost is about.

Questions I still have:
(1) Why should no one trust the captain, and who gave the note?
(2) Why did Hurley apologize to Jack for going with Locke?
Seems #1 is a plot hole that will never be answered, and unless something major happens, #2s explanation seems weak at best.

DM SAID:

Hurley: Again, you guys have created a lazy cause and effect relationship by saying "Hurley was institutionalized because the reappearance of the numbers." Hurley was broken by Charlie's appearance. This event definitively puts the man in the institution. The re-emergence of the numbers during a tactless birthday party can be traced as a catalyst for Hurley's inability to assimilate off-Island." -END QUOTE

While I respect your opinion on the subject, I dutifuly object. It is definitely not a lazy "cause and effect relationship" and I'll explain why. It is a fact that Hurley has had some unbalanced moments in his life, right? And then he got better. Then he landed on the island and there were the NUMBERS. Then he thought he was losing it again when his imaginary friend Dave showed up. Etc etc...while it is not CLEARLY stated, we LOST fans are smart enough to know when to infer content and know that NOT EVERY SINGLE MINUTE detail of ANY story can be told step by step, so look at it from this perspective....if in the real world someone had been institutionalized b/c of a chemical unbalance, and then they start seeing imaginary ppl (Dave), its pretty clear there's a problem here right? So the good Dr does a good job to convince you this imaginary friend is non-existent, and you come to realize that "dang, I guess I really am a little nutty after all". So you get yourself back in order, square yourself away, and get out. (the rest of the story in Hurley's life notwithstanding) and after everything he's been through, emotionally, mentally, psychologically, on an already mushy brain and by mushy i merely mean susceptible-ANY human being in that position having had experienced what he did-before AND after the island, considering his mental past, is bound to feel just a little unbalanced once again, if "AFTER EVERYTHING I'VE BEEN THROUGH" there are the numbers again!(especially since learning that these numbers weren't random but in fact directly connected to the island-that same island that brought them so much suffering). So, If for a moment, we try to put ourselves into that moment in the Z28 when Post Traumatic- Hurley is about to take the car for a spin with dad-he looks down and what does he see? 4-8-15-16-23-42...listen, I think its safe to say WHILE ITS NOT THE NUMBERS IN AND OF THEMSELVES that cause Hurley to finally crack/in the future, it definitely puts him well on his way for another break in psychosis. Seeing his "dead" friend Charlie, is just the catalyst. Not any 1 thing makes you "snap" if you will, it's the combination of multiple things, that when brought together create that tear in the fabric of one's being-bringing us to the point where we cannot withstand anymore and thus rupturing our reality. So really, it's not a lazy cause and effect relationship...its an underlined reality that Hurley at his best wasn't always "there"... and when he finally thought the worst of the worst was behind him, "guess who's back?" Little demented Hurley. And who can blame the guy for cracking really?!

Um, Hugo saw Charlie before going to and while at Santa Rosa. I think he wanted to go there because it was familiar and he feels/felt safe there.

The C4 on the freighter could very well be and extension to what Mike was supposed to ignite via his working for Ben. Why would Keamey care about a boat with a handful of people on it? If Keamey dies, the boat blows up? I don't see a clear correlation there.

The whispers that led to Hugos' party were classic. "Jesus is not a weapon" - remember that.

RICHARD ALPERT IS BACK AND BETTER (and younger) than before! Obviously, Ben did not tell them to go to the Orchid station, why not? The Others are a small army.

So now they have two hours to save the island and somehow make Hugo, Jack, Kate, Jin, and Sayid meet up somewhere. This should be good considering Ben never told Locke what to actually do once inside the Orchid, and the Oceanic 6 are spread out over 4 locations.

DM, I think its obvious that the Orchid is an emergency plan first created by Dharma. The 'secondary protocol' had a Dharma logo on it, suggesting that Dharma created the station and its respective purpose and value in emergency situations. Second, Ben mad the reference that the box with the crackers had been there for 15 years, pre-purge. And Third, if Ben uses it for emergency purposes and as Keamy stated, 'there's only one place he can go' then this would be the same purpose Dharma used it for....should it be THAT special.

The bigger question here is how does Widmore tie in? Was he Dharma, an Other at one time, or was he possibly one of the islands 'original' inhabitants like timeless Richard? This question is far more intriguing.

boo... DM, boo.....

PREDICTION:
Des will make everyone abandon boat onto possible life rafts or the Faraday Express, Locke Vs. keamey inside the station, and John will be forced to decide to kill Keamey/Explode boat (fickle bitch).

It is ever so apparent that Ben and Widmore have lived this timeline before and know what will happen next. Ben will somehow slip away from Keamey's team via wormhole or 'death'.

alright so as some of you ppl squabble over the whole numbers versus dead charlie issue i would like to throw in my two cents ......something puts him in that car ....do we know if it was seeing dead charlie? for sure? i might be off here but he seemed dead set against having anything to do with that car ...

It's a difficult issue, HOWEVER... Tle/Mittlewerk are not canon. I've confirmed that one on two in (count em) two interviews with the bosses. The events of the TLE are tangents and have nothing to do with the show. The Dharma of the game had a very different purpose than the Dharma of the show. Just like Sam Thomas is piloting a remote in the game Find 815, but was not in the show. TLE, like find815, is an independent self contained project based on LOST. Information from the games are not admissible.

Before Sun walked into Paik to announce her takeover, the other exec's in the room made a comment about the 'money coming from 5 different accounts'. Is it possible that all of the (adult) Oceanic 6 are in on the purchase of a controlling interest in Paik??

Docarzt said: "It's a difficult issue, HOWEVER... Tle/Mittlewerk are not canon. I've confirmed that one on two in (count em) two interviews with the bosses. The events of the TLE are tangents and have nothing to do with the show. The Dharma of the game had a very different purpose than the Dharma of the show. Just like Sam Thomas is piloting a remote in the game Find 815, but was not in the show. TLE, like find815, is an independent self contained project based on LOST. Information from the games are not admissible."


I am aware that some Lost sites do not consider the "games" to be part of the canon and some sites consider information from the games as usable if a point of the games doesn't contridict information in the series. In light of what Doc said above, I will admend my statement in regards to the Secondary Protocol.


"There is no active Dharma project, since at least 1992 (time of the Purge), if not earlier. There is evidence from the show that the Others have continued some Dharma inspired research since that time. This would certainly imply (if not possibly prove) that any document that Widmore with Dharma graphics on it would be a document that was formulated by the project, not by Widmore, prior to current time."

DID ANYONE ELSE CATCH THIS?
At Christian's funeral/memorial...Jack said "About TEN months ago, I wrote what I wanted to say at my father's funeral on the back of a cocktail napkin, at the Sydney airport"

W H A T?!

According to Lostpedia:
According to the fabricated story, the Oceanic 6 found rescue on Day 108. Coincidentally, this falls on January 8, 2005, or 08-01-2005 - 815.

So am I missing something in regards to the timeline? If they have spent 3 1/2 months on the island, and here it is "about ten months" from when he was at the Sydney airport where he was waiting to bring daddy dearest home...what does this mean? They waited almost 8 months before preparing a memorial for him?

WLN:
If you are going to be a main contributor to this site, please check your facts more carefully before posting. I don't mean to be overly critical. I'm trying to like you because you are one of the few I have come across on LOST sites near my age group (I'm actually a few years older than you).

There are two glaring errors in your post.

First:
Hurley does NOT end up back in Santa Rosa because he saw the numbers in the car. In fact, it is clear that he got over that as in the opening scene of this season, "The Beginning of the end", he is driving the Camero. Jack even recognizes the car and knows it's Hurley when he sees the high speed chase on television.

Second:
In the 06 cover story there were 3 "temporary survivors" of the plane crash, not 2. During Kate's trial in "Eggtown", Jack clearly states on the stand that there were 8 initial survivors, three died on the fake island (leaving 5 survivors) and a few days later Aaron was born (bringing the total back up to 6). Darlton have since said that we will find out who the other 3 "temporary survivors" are and that they will be someone who died during each of the first three seasons. I even predicted somewhere in the forums that the three would be Boone (S1), Shannon (S2) and Charlie (S3).

JJ:
I thought that initially as well. But I resolved it by thinking that several months had passed between their rescue and Christian's funeral.

gusteaux : I probably should have made my comments a bit more informative, rather then the short snips that I wrote. It was an effort to get some dialog going shortly after the episode aired.


My remark about the "temporary survivors" should have stated that we could probably now surmise that Jin and Claire were not part of those survivors. Of course, you are correct about there being a total of 3 mentioned.


And, as I have tried to explain above, the Numbers seemed to be Hurley's first break with reality (post Island) which would start a downward spiral to the recurrence of his shakey mental state.


Perhaps my short pithy comments should have been a little more defined.


Thank you for you corrections and opinions.

I made my post above correcting two errors in the main post before reading Cerberus' "Arguing/Insulting/Admonishing other contributors on the Main Blog" post in the Quarintine section of the Forums. My apologies. I tried to be respectful and in the future will make comments of that nature in a more private way.

However, I do expect the main contributors to this site to be aware of what happens in the story, especially within the current season. Lord knows no one can remember every detail from every episode from every season. I will be the first to admit that I have erred in posts before myself. But again, I do hold main page contributors to a higher standard.

Sorry if I have offended anyone.

Namaste.

Just watched the part in eggtown with jack on the stand. He says she tried to save the other 2 not 3. So from my perspective there is still someone not accounted for: 8 people landed in the water. 2 did not survive. Then Hurly Jack Kate Sayid Sun. No mention of the 8th.

Nothing to add accept, Erica, good eye/ear.

The person who left the "Don't Trust the Captain" note has to be Michael, whoever said they had questions as to who did that is looking way too hard for mysteries. There are some things that can be inferred on this show that don't need explicit explanation. If you believe it's Michael that left the note than the reason why Sayid and Desmond shouldn't trust the captain is simple, Michael "works" for Ben and the Captain works for Widmore. Just because in recent episodes the captain of the freighter has been an upstanding, moral gentleman and died because he wanted to stop Keamey's Super Kill Crew from going Tet Offensive on the Island doesn't mean that at one time Michael, and by proxy Ben, could never have doubts over his character. Unless Ben spoke directly to someone on that freighter there is no way he would trust him or her. Remember, he wanted Naomi killed and it seems her instructions were honorable in comparison to those given to Keamey. The "Don't Trust the Captain" could mean to not believe his version of who did what in faking the crash of Oceanic Flight 815, as it states Benjamin Linus as the man responsible for the crash site and the digging up of dead bodies. If Sayid and Desmond did believe the Captain's explanation than it makes it a lot easier for them to give Michael up as the mole on the freighter. Or maybe the Captain says he makes a really good New England Clam Chowder but it's actually terrible. No matter what the reason I don't think it's important enough to need a flashback to see who dropped the note and why. But that's just me, I guess I just tend to go with things that happen on this show a little easier than some, which is probably going to be bad when the zombie season becomes a reality.

Wait, I do have something to add -

I thought the most significant reveal (as in, something we didn't glean from any "spoilery-hints") last night was that Claire's mom made it out of the coma and that she does not know who Aaron is. Oh, what a tangled web Jack has weaved.

Thanks for the reply about the "Not trusting the Captain" note. I guess I need to just let it go... One more observation. During Kate's trial in "Eggtown", Jack said they crashed ON a small island in the Pacific Ocean. Last night during the briefing they stated they crashed IN the Indian Ocean.

This is a BIG difference?!

You think this is just a continuity error or there is more going on here?!

If DHARMA is completely inactive, who dropped the DHARMA brand snackies for the food drop in season 2?

When watching the claire centered episode about her mother, I never got the impression that she died.. mainly because all over the episode people/docters were explaining about the coma and hell, she even visits her mother before getting on flight 815. yet every single forum I visited mentions the same 'notable thing' namely... omg she wasn't dead (nr 11 in the first post..) whats up with that? if you'd paid attention in that episode, you shouldn't be surprised to see her alive! but awake!

Gusteaux, if you're going to complain about inaccuracies, YOU need to get your facts right.

"In the 06 cover story there were 3 "temporary survivors" of the plane crash, not 2. During Kate's trial in "Eggtown", Jack clearly states on the stand that there were 8 initial survivors, three died on the fake island (leaving 5 survivors) and a few days later Aaron was born (bringing the total back up to 6)." That's completely wrong. Here's the transcript:

" Only eight of us survived the crash. We landed in the water. I was hurt, pretty badly. In fact, if it weren't for her, I would have never made it to the shore. She took care of me. She took care of all of us. She--she gave us first aid, water, found food, made shelter. She tried to save the other two, but they didn't--"

That makes it sound like there were TWO temporary survivors, not three. And with Aaron born later, it doesn't add up - there has been a LOT of speculation that there's either more to the story or this is a potential plot hole. But Jack doesn't say how many died later, we don't know so we've had to speculate about it.

"Darlton have since said that we will find out who the other 3 "temporary survivors" are and that they will be someone who died during each of the first three seasons. I even predicted somewhere in the forums that the three would be Boone (S1), Shannon (S2) and Charlie (S3)."

When did Darlton say this? In fact, they have said on the official podcast that the identities of the other TWO are irrelevant, leading some to believe that we'll never find out their identities.

We now know that Claire wasn't one of the two, we already knew Jin wasn't from the episode that showed his tombstone with his death date being the date of the crash.

Mark Buehner said: "If DHARMA is completely inactive, who dropped the DHARMA brand snackies for the food drop in season 2?"


Great question, and then that got me thinking.


It appears that Widmore, at one time, knew how to get to the Island. What if sometime before/after the Purge, the Others moved the Island. The Island moved in time, but not space. The Dharma project sent a food drop, as a normal procedure, but it took 12-15 years for the pallet to arrive on the Island.


And over the years, Island time is starting to catch up with the outside world (IE: the doc's body, the rocket).


Very vague. Maybe someone could flesh this out.

Tobie, you're right. We have known all along that Claire's mom was alive, she was in a coma. So the reveal isn't that she's alive, but that she's out of the coma and completely recovered. There seems to be a lot of odd speculation lately from people who don't remember the details, stuff like Locke and Ben being brothers, or Alpert being Locke's dad...

don't forget, though, now we know the story is that aaron was born on the island. so there has to be 3 people who died out of the "eight survivors."

Two comments about Aaron and Christian's funeral...

First, samthomas, Aaron is considered a survivor. This has been long established. 6 survivors living means 2 dead. Let's not re-hash the 'is aaron a survivor or not' debate. That was an ugly one.

Second, JJ makes a great observation above as to Jack saying that 10 months have passed since the crash. At first glance you can say that maybe the funeral took place further in the future. BUT, remember Sayid said that shortly after he got back that Nadia was killed/died? I can't remember the exact time frame, but I want to say 2 months after he got back, which would put the funeral much closer to the O6's return to the mainland/normal world.....so i think there might be a good basis for the O6 being catapulted in time when the leave the island.

thoughts?

charlie's ghost.... huh? i don't understand what you mean about aaron being a survivor. yes, he's an o-sixer, but clearly not a survivor of the crash because he was born on the island. right? so there's two died in the water, and one died on the island, five survivors, one baby born later = oceanic six.

"What if sometime before/after the Purge, the Others moved the Island. The Island moved in time, but not space. The Dharma project sent a food drop, as a normal procedure, but it took 12-15 years for the pallet to arrive on the Island."

That is a very cool theory.

Hmmmm- here's a thought along those lines. What if moving the island means 'spinning' the crazy coordinates that dictate which vectors are safe and how they affect time dilation?

You may still have the location of the island, but without knowledge of which approaches are safe you would either be killed or vaulted unpredictably through time.

Charlie's Ghost, samthomas is right. We're not debating whether Aaron is in the O6, he is. But he was born after the crash, he wasn't someone who got out of the crashed plane.

Eight escaped the plane. Jack says something about two of them later. Aaron is born, bringing it up to seven, meaning someone else must have died later, bringing the total to three deaths.

Aaron counts as one rescued from the island, but he doesn't count as someone who survived the crash since he wasn't born yet. If you point to a group of five pregnant women, people will say that is five people, not a group of ten people.

I think we are looking at a plot hole when it comes to the "Oceanic 6" cover up story in comparing the press conferance and Jack's testimony.

This is what Jack said in Eggtown:

JACK: Only eight of us survived the crash. We landed in the water. I was hurt, pretty badly. In fact, if it weren't for her, I would have never made it to the shore. She took care of me. She took care of all of us. She--she gave us first aid, water, found food, made shelter. She tried to save the other TWO, but they didn't--

So this makes it seem like there were initially 8 survivors (not counting Aaron) and that two later died due to injuries. And that Aaron was born later.

Okay that's fine. However, it contradicts with what we now know. In the press conference they stated that the Oceanic 6 (minus Aaron) crashed and ended up on a small island, two other passengers died, and then Aaron was born.

This directly conflicts with Jack's testimony where he makes it seem like six survived aside from Aaron, who had not yet been born.

That is assuming Jack didnt count in-utero Aaron as a survivor. Its plausible he did, and certainly plausible that a shellshocked survivor could be forgiven for counting the baby he spent a couple months with amongst their number.

There's no way that Jack would count a pregnant woman as two people. There either must be some other explanation, or there's a plot hole.

And even if Jack counted Aaron, then he'd have to count Sun's kid as well using that logic. That would mean the eight original survivors were the O6 plus Ji Yeon plus one more. Since seven left the island if you include Ji Yeon, then there's no way two could have died.

It just doesn't add up either way, there's either another part of the story we haven't heard, or it's a plot hole.

Why does it matter who did or did not "survive" the crash? We already know the story is a cover up and that they're lying, so why does it matter WHO they're lying about? I don't see how it would ultimately determine that persons fate as either being on island or actually dead. We can rule out Jin and Desmond (because of Sun's testimony and Desmond not being on the plane), so does it matter if it's Sawyer, Locke, Rose, Bernard, Claire, Charlie, Michael, Walt, Cindy, Libby, Ana Lucia, Eko, Shannon, Boone, Nikki, Paulo, Neil Frogurt, Leslie Arzt, Scott, Steve or the Captain? Or any one I didn't mention?

MerlboroMan, ultimately it may not matter. But people are just curious. I'm more curious how they'll make the numbers add up.

Yes, milo! Why can't this be a legitamate topic of discussion? People are always putting it down, but it IS completely compelling, and has been since we first heard the testimony, that there is a cover story. I personally can't WAIT to find out why and how they came up with the story and how it's going to play out knowing that the reporter is already skeptical of Kate's pregnancy! It's one of the coolest parts of the story and I'm sick of people on this board saying it doesn't matter or isn't interesting!!!!!! It's a world wide scandal in the Lost universe!!!!!! Doesn't anyone get the magnitude of such a scandalous cover story?!!! It's insanity going on, and some of us can't wait to find out why and how it will go down!!!

David said:
Questions I still have:
(1) Why should no one trust the captain, and who gave the note?
(2) Why did Hurley apologize to Jack for going with Locke?
Seems #1 is a plot hole that will never be answered, and unless something major happens, #2s explanation seems weak at best.

I would say for 1 that it was obviously Michael who wrote the note and probably because he belived the Captain to be in on everything even though we know now he wasn't. Not such a big deal really.

As for 2)? Hurley probably said he should have gone with Locke so that he wasn't part of the whole New Otherton attack, and wasn't dragged through the woods...plus, we don't yet know what happens in the next 2 hours. I think its that he respects jack more and wishes that he hadn't turned on him.

Man, this is cutting in my cycling time, but here it goes:

"Do not trust the captain": The captain implies Ben is the conspirator responsible for the fake wreckage. The note also proves to the viewer there is a spy on the boat.

O6+2 (I posted this earlier on this site, but he we go again since no one listens):

the identity of the two survivors is completely irrelevant. Pursuing this question is a useless endeavor that only distracts from more important questions.

The lie is for the benefit of the viewer because it contradicts his/her knowledge of the crash as experienced through the show. We know 80 or so people survived the crash, the plane did not crash into the ocean, Kate wasn't the hero, etc. This gives us a couple big questions:
1) What happened to all the survivors on the Island? Why did only six leave?
2) Why are they lying?

We have to assume the civil society into which the 06 return have accepted and "dealt with" the consequences of this story. Three-hundred something people were killed in the crash, so what is two more in the face of such destruction? To the public, it is not the dead that become the focus, but those who are alive. It's a much more sensational story. If the show were to pursue the identity of two arbitrary faceless survivors who exist only in a lie, then we risk a story as useless as the meaning of jack's tattoos.

The show has to have a narrow focus. Narrative parsimony is essential to create a cohesive and well paced story (not to mention it is very limited in what it can discuss since it must be discussed within the parameters of alloted episodes. There's no room for meandering through every aspect introduced in the story-- only the most fruitful or interesting can be pursued).

Not everything on the show is a clue. It's foolish to even view the series as a conventional mystery that has clues parsed throughout the narrative. People are looking too hard for the key to decode the show instead of just taking it for what it is: character studies in a sci-fi context.

Orchid, second protocol, nerds, etc: Having the Orchid logo on the cover doesn't say a single thing about authorship.

Hurley: Charlie is the reason.

It is not legitimate bc Darlton has stated that it doesnt matter who they are!

okay. i guess it doesn't matter. i guess the writers wasted dialogue then in part one of the finale when the reporter asks sun if jin was one of the crash survivors. i guess that doesn't matter at all. i guess we shouldn't be curious trying to piece together why they came up with eight survivors instead of ten, twelve, twenty, etc. they could've said twenty people survived and then 14 died in the water.... but whatever, i guess then the writers wasted time making up the story, too.

apparantly... it doesnt matter bc it is just a cover story

AHHHH! the COVER STORY is part of the LOST STORY!!!! OF COURSE IT MATTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The reason people complain nothing new happened is because they read spoilers.

"It is not legitimate bc Darlton has stated that it doesnt matter who they are!"

They said that...personally I don't believe them on this one. And what does "legitimate" supposed to mean in this case? Sure, it may not be something crucial to the story, but viewers are entitled to be interested in whatever they want. Personally, I find it intriguing and I'd like to know.

And I think that if it really wasn't relevant, they would just tell us the two names to get us to stop asking. Since they don't, I suspect it's for a reason.

And of course the protocol must be Dharma related somehow...if it wasn't, why would it have a big Dharma logo on the cover?

sam - aftery the first 50 exclamation points it starts to lose its value. ;)

milo - you're welcome to your curiousity and you have every right to be s interested in any aspect of the show you would like...just don't expect everyone else to share in your enthusiasm.

Regarless of the cover-up nature of their story, or whether it was 2 or 3 temporary survivors, the reason I think it is still important is it still may give us insight to who may die before the end of this season. There has been some talk of Claire being "undead" and we did see a tombstone for Jin in the future.


If the cover story wasn't important for us, then why wouldn't the writers include, oh let's say 5 temporary survivors. Sawyer, Doc Arzt, Rose and Bernard and so on. Is it because they ARE ALIVE and the O6 wouldn't feel comfortable with claiming someone they know is dead if they are not.


It is easier to just not make any claims about the rest of these people.


So, I think those two names come up (Jin at the press conferance and Claire's at Jack's Ddad's funeral) because they have died.


Whether we will see Claire and Jin in the future, new time line, undead or what ever, is another topic.


WLN

"just don't expect everyone else to share in your enthusiasm."

Who said I did?

Some people have wondered about this (I've seen the question posed a LOT online). Why the outrage when the question gets asked?

We're going to discuss it. If you don't want to join in, don't.

Milo - you're reading outrage where there is none. At best it's mild amusment that this has reached sixty comments, mostly about whether or not it's a legitimate issue.

I think that the survivors of the original crash and then those who make it to be the oceanic 6 has to be a very small number, No one here has been taking into account that the "O6" are not saying there is a plane full of people at the bottom of the ocean that is not flight 815. The "O6" also, have to be careful about who they say survived, because the plane is pretty full of people down there. Cameras have shown the plane full of people to the entire world. The less people that make it on the island, the more plausible for the "O6" to keep with their story whyever they are sticking to it or decided to tell it.

Ugh. Honestly, the O6+2 hounders are dense.

The writers didn't waste time by declaring there were two who died. Again, the cover-up plays two roles: for the viewer, the story of O6 survival is a lie. Any name could be thrown into the +2; it doesn't matter who it is because the identities are not for the viewer but for the world who has just learned there were survivors of Oceanic 815. The viewer knows a lot more people survived.

Why eight survivors? How much time do you think it would take to scramble out of an airplane that has just crashed into the ocean? In a catastrophic event like this, the chances of survival are slim. A smaller number is more realistic than saying "hey, like twenty of us escaped, but everyone died." The O6 have to sell their story to a scrutinizing public.

Why wouldn't it be Jin or Claire? We don't know if they are dead. Jin is a likely case (but I would assume his accelerated use of English would suggest he is alive and well and functioning on the Island without Sun as a translator). Claire? Why would she be dead? She might very well find herself acting as a character like that woman who told Desmond he has to push the button. Is she dead?

I really can't believe people refuse to grasp any of this.

i was being sarcastic when i suggested it was a waste of time... obviously. I'm the one saying that the story gives us important clues to the fates of our losties.

and OBVIOUSLY the viewers know 48 people survived the crash. we've watched the show... hehe.

AND we know from Ben's convo with Sayid in Iraq that the public --in the world of the show, now, not us viewers, ;) -- has been told that the plane found at the bottom was a fake. So, it doesn't matter in the slightest how many bodies were found in the wreckage. (Which, by the way, was 324 -- all accounted for.)

anyway, we should not neglect this point about the 8 survivors cover story. I think the reporter's question about Jin and about Kate's pregnancy is a clue from the writers that the cover story is something we should be thinking about. :)
I'm not interested in WHO they are anyway. I am interested in what that number (it's a "number" by the way) tells us about the fate of our Losties. Because WLN is right -- it can give us insight into who might be dying in the last episode. Or, it could give us insight into who survives, or why only six can get rescued. Does everyone blow up on the boat? And so I think it's unfair to call people dense when we are trying to theorize the events of the finale based on the clues we have. :) So for anyone who cares -- and please ignore if you are not interested in this kind of theorizing -- here are some of the questions I came up with derived from the cover story clues:
Is Oceanic in on the cover up, or did Jack's crew make up the story themselves? And what's at stake for the story line in either scenario?
One possible scenario is that Jack's crew made up the story because there were 3 dead bodies to account for.

What i have been theorizing about is that the reason that there are eight people mentioned in the cover story is that maybe they want to allow Michael and Walt to come enter back into society eventually. Maybe they can show up later, as two who drifted off and landed on a different island....

Thank you for the "kudos" Charlie's Ghost...now I have another comment to add to the bunch...
:
Erica said:
Before Sun walked into Paik to announce her takeover, the other exec's in the room made a comment about the 'money coming from 5 different accounts'. Is it possible that all of the (adult) Oceanic 6 are in on the purchase of a controlling interest in Paik??
======================================
But what if it was just SUN? When Mr. Paik was speaking to his associates and he says "How could this happen" or "how could you let this happen?" They in like respond with how "the money came from 5 different accts" which in turn sounds to me like....perhaps Sun the Clever One, could have purchased the company interest via 5 different aliases (you know how real world organizations will have say, different operations, but ultimately they all work for the same goal so their profits go to the same place in the end? something like that). Well, what if Sun did this? Buy the controlling portion of Paik Ind via the 5 aliases, hence the 5 accts? And b/c Sun is no longer afraid of daddy dearest...so...In comes DEFIANT SUN once the deal is complete...as a sort of, 'I wanna see the look on his face when he finds out IM THE BOSS NOW' LOL. I love it! I love Sun!

This would be for her, the only way to pull the rug from under her father...so he couldn't see what was happening until it was too late..."NOW YOU WILL RESPECT ME"-SUN....BRAVO

"AND we know from Ben's convo with Sayid in Iraq that the public --in the world of the show, now, not us viewers, ;) -- has been told that the plane found at the bottom was a fake."

What are you talking about?

The producers have already said the +2 are irrelevant, just a cover story, don't matter, etc.

I'm thinking the O6 cover story is devised to tell as little about what really happened as possible, in as simple a narrative as possible. I don't think there is any rationale for them to discuss 8 survivors of the original crash unless there is some evidence of those other three survivors which needs to be explained.

My guess is that when the O6 arrive on the populated island, they have with them the bodies of three of their companions who did not survive the events of the season finale. The O6 would have brought them along out of respect, and either did or planned to bury them whenever they found land.
When the populated island people found them, they saw the dead bodies, and therefore they needed to be explained. The biggest problem I see with this scenario is that it will be hard to explain how/why the three all died so recently, and probably in some violent fashion.

Just to be clear: 8 original survivors + 1 birth (Aaron) - 3 deaths/bodies = O6.

Ugh x2.

There is no +3. Jack's retelling of the story say that Kate "tried to save the other two." If anything, it's just a script error. According to the story given in the last episode. They first reached land by way of a deserted island. Then they made their way to the populated island. I haven't re-watched the episode, but I want to say this occurred at day 108. So, if we follow the story, the other two/three/who cares survivors died on the first island.

The story is a fabrication made to cover the real experience. So much energy wasted a topic that has been closed.

desertrat and others, you're right about the +3 and DM is wrong. :)

If this is helpful at all, DM, when you asked what I was talking about above: I was referring to J Gray's comment about the plane at the bottom of the sea. I'm assuming once the O6 are rescued, the plane wreckage that had been publicized previously is revealed to be fake. So, it wouldn't matter how many survivors are found -- all 324 bodies would be known to be fake, not related to the real plane crash.

Also, DM: don't make people feel dumb when you are not trying to understand what we are thinking. Desertrat IS right. The number "8" survivors does mean that the PUBLIC (in the fictional LOST world) believes that 3 people did in fact die after surviving the initial crash, 5 survived, and one had a baby. Whether or not the IDENTITIES of these people are important (which I don't think they are), it is still a necessary thing to understand as part of the cover story, and it is NOT a script error.
Thanks for listening! :)

anybody catch sun telling her father that he was 1 of the 2 people she was holding responsible for jins death? so, jin is really dead then? (maybe dies in finale). she was serious, no 06 lies there. im thinking JACK is the second one shes got it in for.

Revisit episode four. Jack says "eight of us survived the crash" then kate "tried to save the other two." It's a writing error or their deaths occured after Kate is said to have birthed Aaron. Regardless, the +3 never existed in the first place. +2 or +3, it doesn't matter. You need go no further than the podcast (or the one after) for the episode in which this is discussed. The cover story allows the staged wreckage to be qualified as the authentic Oceanic 815. You guys are bringing stuff into the story which cannot be supported because it isn't in the story.

If you're talking about the conversation between Sayid and Ben, there is never any implication the world knows the wreck is staged. Ben says "the man who tried to make believe your plane is sitting at the bottom of the ocean" or something to that effect. If you follow the timeline (2005 when the statement is made) and 2006 or 2007 when we visit Kate's trial, Jack and Kate's relationship, and then Jack trying to kill himself, the cover story is generally accepted as truth.

I believe what Ben was trying to say is "You know, that man who wanted the world to believe you were dead."

OMG THEY CANNOT KILL DESMOND
i will be so mad if they do
they cannot CANNOT kill him
but it makes sense that he dies coz, it could be that coz of Des dying, Faraday will be in danger n also the whole thing abt Ben wanting to kill Penny, that would be a lot easier i guess if Desmond is out of the way
but i don't want him to die

The Fake Wreckage

One of the most interesting things to me that's been unanswered in the fake wreckage. i thought that the (staged) wreckage had 324 bodies found in it... and so i was under the impression, like some posters above, that after the o6 was found, the whole world would find out the wreckage was a fake. i think that's where the post comes in about ben's convo with sayid.... but, maybe DM's idea is right -- maybe, do you think, that it's going to be something like the wreckage is real but there were actually only 315 bodies found.... or something like that? so maybe it will seem somewhat believable that the divers kind of miscounted or something? that way, everyone goes on believing the wreckage was found with most of the bodies but a few people managed to escape the crash, and that's the o6ers. What was everyone else's impression of the o6'ers relationship to the fake wreckage? thanks!!!

humm 15 years........... could this have anything to do with the message Rousseau left and maybe the Orchid secondary protocal was the reason of the sickness?

like maybe they moved the island the last time after Rousseau and her crew got there?

Regarding the missing 2 or 3, apparently the writers DID decide that it was either significant enough, or there was enough audience interest. When the first part of the finale is rerun, it will include some deleted footage, including more questions answered at the press conference. Rumor has it that Jack gives the names of the other three included in the cover story (and I've heard the names already but won't post them here since it could be considered a spoiler).
Some people kept insisting that it was not worth discussing...I guess according to the writers, you were wrong.

I know it might not seem like a big deal to us, but if I had a family member on flight 815 and thought they were dead, only to find out 6--or 8 of them survived, I'd want to know the identity of the other two (or three) just to put to rest the fate of my loved one...